Freenode and libera.chat
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:21 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Probably not the best timing, but should we consider (again) running a more advanced free software chat system? E.g. Outreachy uses Zulip, Mozilla - Matrix, there are probably more.
Dmitry
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
On 2021-05-19 15:30:04 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote: [...]
Probably not the best timing, but should we consider (again) running a more advanced free software chat system? E.g. Outreachy uses Zulip, Mozilla - Matrix, there are probably more.
[...]
Feel free to try running anything you like, but discussions will generally take place wherever they take place. Adding a new communication platform doesn't mean everyone will switch to it. After all, there are already OpenStack discussion spaces on Discord, Slack, Reddit... but IRC as a protocol has survived and outlived its earlier "killed replacements" by decades, so I expect it will persist regardless of what else comes along.
On Wed, May 19, 2021, 15:35 Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:21 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Probably not the best timing, but should we consider (again) running a more advanced free software chat system? E.g. Outreachy uses Zulip, Mozilla
- Matrix, there are probably more.
+1, IRC is great, but it's technologically too outdated.
Dmitry
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:34 PM Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:21 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Probably not the best timing, but should we consider (again) running a more advanced free software chat system? E.g. Outreachy uses Zulip, Mozilla
- Matrix, there are probably more.
Yeah I'd say not the greatest timing to start such a conversation under
pressure.
FWIF I'd rather not. The signal to noise ratio tends to be very poor on all of them with their stickers, gifs and all the active media crap embedded in them.
- jokke
Dmitry
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 02:42:02PM +0100, Erno Kuvaja wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:34 PM Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
[...]
Probably not the best timing, but should we consider (again) running a more advanced free software chat system? E.g. Outreachy uses Zulip, Mozilla
- Matrix, there are probably more.
Yeah I'd say not the greatest timing to start such a conversation under
pressure.
FWIF I'd rather not. The signal to noise ratio tends to be very poor on all of them with their stickers, gifs and all the active media crap embedded in them.
I agree that the dancing poop GIFs are very distracting. So "yes" to sticking with IRC given its strengths and simplicity. Though, I'm biased here as a long-time happy IRC user.
That said, two things:
- Those who _do_ want to use Matrix seem to have an option in terms of Matrix <-> IRC bridge. I see several people with [m] in their IRC nicks on #virt channel on OFTC network. So people seem to successfully use IRC with Matrix.
- IRC seems to give an outdated feel for many newcomers. So if there are other "better" FOSS alternatives that accomodates our community's needs — and without alienating existing IRC users' needs — we should be willing to explore. But I agree that this is not the right timing to start this discussion, and I'm not even sure if this is a "real problem".
[...]
+1 on sticking with the IRC. It's simple, established, and a lot of us have tuned our workflow around it. As a person who was using discord and slack for some time in a professional capacity, I can only say that it's hadly an improvement over IRC.
And in more general terms. When it comes to change, I don't think "it's newer" is much of an argument by itself.
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 4:17 PM Kashyap Chamarthy kchamart@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 02:42:02PM +0100, Erno Kuvaja wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:34 PM Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com
wrote:
[...]
Probably not the best timing, but should we consider (again) running a more advanced free software chat system? E.g. Outreachy uses Zulip,
Mozilla
- Matrix, there are probably more.
Yeah I'd say not the greatest timing to start such a conversation under
pressure.
FWIF I'd rather not. The signal to noise ratio tends to be very poor on
all
of them with their stickers, gifs and all the active media crap embedded
in
them.
I agree that the dancing poop GIFs are very distracting. So "yes" to sticking with IRC given its strengths and simplicity. Though, I'm biased here as a long-time happy IRC user.
That said, two things:
Those who _do_ want to use Matrix seem to have an option in terms of Matrix <-> IRC bridge. I see several people with [m] in their IRC nicks on #virt channel on OFTC network. So people seem to successfully use IRC with Matrix.
IRC seems to give an outdated feel for many newcomers. So if there are other "better" FOSS alternatives that accomodates our community's needs — and without alienating existing IRC users' needs — we should be willing to explore. But I agree that this is not the right timing to start this discussion, and I'm not even sure if this is a "real problem".
[...]
-- /kashyap
On 5/19/21 4:34 PM, Jiri Podivin wrote:
+1 on sticking with the IRC. It's simple, established, and a lot of us have tuned our workflow around it. As a person who was using discord and slack for some time in a professional capacity, I can only say that it's hadly an improvement over IRC.
And in more general terms. When it comes to change, I don't think "it's newer" is much of an argument by itself.
+1 to all you wrote.
Thomas
On 5/19/21 10:12 AM, Kashyap Chamarthy wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 02:42:02PM +0100, Erno Kuvaja wrote:
FWIF I'd rather not. The signal to noise ratio tends to be very poor on all of them with their stickers, gifs and all the active media crap embedded in them.
I agree that the dancing poop GIFs are very distracting. So "yes" to sticking with IRC given its strengths and simplicity. Though, I'm biased here as a long-time happy IRC user.
Unless of course you were using the Comic Chat client for IRC... <g>
(I think on some systems, using Comic Chat on a non-CC server could get you banned).
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:42 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:34 PM Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:21 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Probably not the best timing, but should we consider (again) running a more advanced free software chat system? E.g. Outreachy uses Zulip, Mozilla
- Matrix, there are probably more.
Yeah I'd say not the greatest timing to start such a conversation under
pressure.
FWIF I'd rather not. The signal to noise ratio tends to be very poor on all of them with their stickers, gifs and all the active media crap embedded in them.
FWIW we face the need to paste images very often (screenshots of booting bare metal), so having a native image pasting is a plus to me.
Actually, text pasting as well. If you've ever encountered someone pasting 50 lines of a traceback to IRC, you know why.
Other features I'm looking for include: 1) Native authentication 2) Chat history and offline messages 3) Editing and deleting messages 4) Threads (or any other way of sub-division of channels) 5) Moderation tools (better than #openstack-unregistered which is hostile to newcomers)
Nice to have: 6) Mobile client 7) Non-trivial syntax
And yes, I do know that all of these (except for #3) can be simulated more or less with 3rd party tools. But this is not friendly to newcomers who don't have an own bouncer and familiarity with how things work in IRC (which does not match how things work in any other current chat - see #openstack-unregistered for an example).
Dmitry
P.S. I don't suggest the infra team maintains a matrix server. I do think that we, given how much money is made from OpenStack, can afford to do the same thing as Mozilla: pay Element for a hosted Matrix instance (and let them bother with scaling).
I find the current situation of putting the burden on Freenode volunteers a bit unfair and vote against moving to Libera for this very reason.
- jokke
Dmitry
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 09:30 +0200, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:42 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:34 PM Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:21 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Probably not the best timing, but should we consider (again) running a more advanced free software chat system? E.g. Outreachy uses Zulip, Mozilla
- Matrix, there are probably more.
Yeah I'd say not the greatest timing to start such a conversation under
pressure.
FWIF I'd rather not. The signal to noise ratio tends to be very poor on all of them with their stickers, gifs and all the active media crap embedded in them.
FWIW we face the need to paste images very often (screenshots of booting bare metal), so having a native image pasting is a plus to me.
Actually, text pasting as well. If you've ever encountered someone pasting 50 lines of a traceback to IRC, you know why.
Other features I'm looking for include:
- Native authentication
- Chat history and offline messages
- Editing and deleting messages
i actully think this ^ in partacalar is not something we want to have. at least not for arbiary tiem because it can retoactivly cahnge the context or tone of a conversation so deleteion and modifcation should be avoid retoactivly.
- Threads (or any other way of sub-division of channels)
im not sure about this but in limited cases it might be useful generally thouhg spliting a channel i think woudl be a disadvantage as generally you want to have input form the channel as a whole breakout rooms can be useful from tim eto time but that is not typically the norm.
- Moderation tools (better than #openstack-unregistered which is hostile
to newcomers)
we have generel done well without needing to do active moderation. #openstack-unregistered only was put in place to stop spam which is slightly differnt the moderation in terems of kicks and bans form a channel which i dont recall ever needing to use upstream at least in the nova channel. perhaps it has happened but that type of moderation largely has been unneed and i hope it will remain that way.
Nice to have: 6) Mobile client 7) Non-trivial syntax
And yes, I do know that all of these (except for #3) can be simulated more or less with 3rd party tools. But this is not friendly to newcomers who don't have an own bouncer and familiarity with how things work in IRC (which does not match how things work in any other current chat - see #openstack-unregistered for an example).
Dmitry
P.S. I don't suggest the infra team maintains a matrix server. I do think that we, given how much money is made from OpenStack, can afford to do the same thing as Mozilla: pay Element for a hosted Matrix instance (and let them bother with scaling).
I find the current situation of putting the burden on Freenode volunteers a bit unfair and vote against moving to Libera for this very reason.
- jokke
Dmitry
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 2:23 PM Sean Mooney smooney@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 09:30 +0200, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:42 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:34 PM Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:21 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com
wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew
Lee
has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one
sided) story
of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole
community
out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before
(snoonet), it
is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned
with the
communities and specially the users who's data he has access to
via this
administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to
all
the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all
our
activities to irc.libera.chat.
Probably not the best timing, but should we consider (again) running
a
more advanced free software chat system? E.g. Outreachy uses Zulip,
Mozilla
- Matrix, there are probably more.
Yeah I'd say not the greatest timing to start such a conversation
under
pressure.
FWIF I'd rather not. The signal to noise ratio tends to be very poor on all of them with their stickers, gifs and all the active media crap embedded in them.
FWIW we face the need to paste images very often (screenshots of booting bare metal), so having a native image pasting is a plus to me.
Actually, text pasting as well. If you've ever encountered someone
pasting
50 lines of a traceback to IRC, you know why.
Other features I'm looking for include:
- Native authentication
- Chat history and offline messages
- Editing and deleting messages
i actully think this ^ in partacalar is not something we want to have. at least not for arbiary tiem because it can retoactivly cahnge the context or tone of a conversation so deleteion and modifcation should be avoid retoactivly.
This risk is mitigated by proper logging. On the other hand, it may be a good thing if people could soften their tone 1 minute after they post something (happens to me). In any case, I don't know if it outweighs the inconvenience of somebody pasting 500 LoC accidentally and not being able to remove it.
- Threads (or any other way of sub-division of channels)
im not sure about this but in limited cases it might be useful generally thouhg spliting a channel i think woudl be a disadvantage as generally you want to have input form the channel as a whole breakout rooms can be useful from tim eto time but that is not typically the norm.
Well, it could be a norm for us. Pretty much every IRC meeting someone interrupts with their question. If the meeting was in a thread, it wouldn't be an issue. Interleaving communications also happen very often.
- Moderation tools (better than #openstack-unregistered which is hostile
to newcomers)
we have generel done well without needing to do active moderation. #openstack-unregistered only was put in place to stop spam which is slightly differnt the moderation
Okay, this probably falls under #1 - native authentication.
Dmitry
in terems of kicks and bans form a channel which i dont recall ever needing
to use upstream at least in the nova channel. perhaps it has happened but that type of moderation largely has been unneed and i hope it will remain that way.
Nice to have: 6) Mobile client 7) Non-trivial syntax
And yes, I do know that all of these (except for #3) can be simulated
more
or less with 3rd party tools. But this is not friendly to newcomers who don't have an own bouncer and familiarity with how things work in IRC (which does not match how things work in any other current chat - see #openstack-unregistered for an example).
Dmitry
P.S. I don't suggest the infra team maintains a matrix server. I do think that we, given how much money is made from OpenStack, can afford to do the
same
thing as Mozilla: pay Element for a hosted Matrix instance (and let them bother with scaling).
I find the current situation of putting the burden on Freenode
volunteers a
bit unfair and vote against moving to Libera for this very reason.
- jokke
Dmitry
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's
letter
which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs,
Michael
O'Neill
On 5/20/21 2:35 PM, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
Well, it could be a norm for us. Pretty much every IRC meeting someone interrupts with their question. If the meeting was in a thread, it wouldn't be an issue. Interleaving communications also happen very often.
Threads is the most horrible concept ever invented for chat. You get 100s of them, and when someone replies, you never know in which thread. Slack is really horrible for this...
Cheers,
Thomas Goirand (zigo)
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 5:50 PM Thomas Goirand zigo@debian.org wrote:
On 5/20/21 2:35 PM, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
Well, it could be a norm for us. Pretty much every IRC meeting someone interrupts with their question. If the meeting was in a thread, it wouldn't be an issue. Interleaving communications also happen very often.
Threads is the most horrible concept ever invented for chat. You get 100s of them, and when someone replies, you never know in which thread. Slack is really horrible for this...
Problems of Slack UI are not problems with threading. Slack is terrible, no disagreement here.
Also, do I understand you right that when you have 3 conversations going on at the same time, you always have an easy time understanding which one a ping corresponds to? I doubt it. Threads make the situation strictly better, assuming people don't go overboard with them.
Another counter-argument: not having threads forces newcomers to use private messages. I cannot count how many times I've heard "asking here because I don't want to disturb the conversation".
Cheers,
Thomas Goirand (zigo)
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:02:43 +0200 Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 5:50 PM Thomas Goirand zigo@debian.org wrote:
Threads is the most horrible concept ever invented for chat. You get 100s of them, and when someone replies, you never know in which thread.
Also, do I understand you right that when you have 3 conversations going on at the same time, you always have an easy time understanding which one a ping corresponds to? I doubt it. Threads make the situation strictly better, assuming people don't go overboard with them.
We have Google Chat at work at Red Hat and it's an absolutele shitshow with threads. Replies are routinely lost and missed unless you ping the recipient _anyway_. And, it's impossible to see what's going on in a channel. So it's not just Slack. Google tries to mitigate it by rotating the thread with the latest reply to the bottom. But even that only works if you're watching them like a hawk and do nothing productive. Works great for chat junkies or perhaps Chat Power Users, I suppose.
-- Pete
On 5/20/21 6:02 PM, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 5:50 PM Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org mailto:zigo@debian.org> wrote:
On 5/20/21 2:35 PM, Dmitry Tantsur wrote: > Well, it could be a norm for us. Pretty much every IRC meeting someone > interrupts with their question. If the meeting was in a thread, it > wouldn't be an issue. Interleaving communications also happen very often. Threads is the most horrible concept ever invented for chat. You get 100s of them, and when someone replies, you never know in which thread. Slack is really horrible for this...Problems of Slack UI are not problems with threading. Slack is terrible, no disagreement here.
Also, do I understand you right that when you have 3 conversations going on at the same time, you always have an easy time understanding which one a ping corresponds to? I doubt it. Threads make the situation strictly better, assuming people don't go overboard with them.
Today, I just had to ask my colleague from which thread it was, then he replied once more in the thread, and I could click fast enough in the notification bubble. If you don't do that then, here's the UI disaster... :
Typically, in a single day, many threads starts. Then someone reply to one of the early threads. I get the notification, but I have no idea from which thread it comes from. Then I waste a lot of time searching for it. Yes, there's the "threads" entry on top left, but it takes a long time to use too (at least 3 clicks, each of them opening a new screen).
Compare this to IRC: someone highlights my name, I just click in the notification area, and Quassel opens on the correct channel, with the line with my name highlighted.
Cheers,
Thomas Goirand (zigo)
Thomas Goirand wrote:
[...] Typically, in a single day, many threads starts. Then someone reply to one of the early threads. I get the notification, but I have no idea from which thread it comes from. Then I waste a lot of time searching for it. Yes, there's the "threads" entry on top left, but it takes a long time to use too (at least 3 clicks, each of them opening a new screen).
Compare this to IRC: someone highlights my name, I just click in the notification area, and Quassel opens on the correct channel, with the line with my name highlighted.
Threads are not universally bad. There are thread-first chat systems (like Zulip[1]) which are pretty good at delivering a threaded chat experience, but they tend to be confusing to people who are used to channel-based chat systems.
[1] https://zulip.com/why-zulip/
чт, 20 мая 2021 г. в 15:32, Sean Mooney smooney@redhat.com:
On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 09:30 +0200, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:42 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:34 PM Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:21 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com
wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew
Lee
has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one
sided) story
of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole
community
out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before
(snoonet), it
is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned
with the
communities and specially the users who's data he has access to
via this
administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to
all
the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all
our
activities to irc.libera.chat.
Probably not the best timing, but should we consider (again) running
a
more advanced free software chat system? E.g. Outreachy uses Zulip,
Mozilla
- Matrix, there are probably more.
Yeah I'd say not the greatest timing to start such a conversation
under
pressure.
FWIF I'd rather not. The signal to noise ratio tends to be very poor on all of them with their stickers, gifs and all the active media crap embedded in them.
FWIW we face the need to paste images very often (screenshots of booting bare metal), so having a native image pasting is a plus to me.
Actually, text pasting as well. If you've ever encountered someone
pasting
50 lines of a traceback to IRC, you know why.
Other features I'm looking for include:
- Native authentication
- Chat history and offline messages
- Editing and deleting messages
i actully think this ^ in partacalar is not something we want to have. at least not for arbiary tiem because it can retoactivly cahnge the context or tone of a conversation so deleteion and modifcation should be avoid retoactivly.
I want to note that OpenStack is a huge community with a lot of not-native speakers(in terms of English). Having an opportunity to modify the message after sending it is a great feature.
- Threads (or any other way of sub-division of channels)
im not sure about this but in limited cases it might be useful generally thouhg spliting a channel i think woudl be a disadvantage as generally you want to have input form the channel as a whole breakout rooms can be useful from tim eto time but that is not typically the norm.
- Moderation tools (better than #openstack-unregistered which is hostile
to newcomers)
we have generel done well without needing to do active moderation. #openstack-unregistered only was put in place to stop spam which is slightly differnt the moderation in terems of kicks and bans form a channel which i dont recall ever needing to use upstream at least in the nova channel. perhaps it has happened but that type of moderation largely has been unneed and i hope it will remain that way.
Nice to have: 6) Mobile client 7) Non-trivial syntax
And yes, I do know that all of these (except for #3) can be simulated
more
or less with 3rd party tools. But this is not friendly to newcomers who don't have an own bouncer and familiarity with how things work in IRC (which does not match how things work in any other current chat - see #openstack-unregistered for an example).
Dmitry
P.S. I don't suggest the infra team maintains a matrix server. I do think that we, given how much money is made from OpenStack, can afford to do the
same
thing as Mozilla: pay Element for a hosted Matrix instance (and let them bother with scaling).
I find the current situation of putting the burden on Freenode
volunteers a
bit unfair and vote against moving to Libera for this very reason.
- jokke
Dmitry
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's
letter
which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs,
Michael
O'Neill
On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 17:05 +0300, Andrey Kurilin wrote:
чт, 20 мая 2021 г. в 15:32, Sean Mooney smooney@redhat.com:
On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 09:30 +0200, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:42 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:34 PM Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:21 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com
wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew
Lee
has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one
sided) story
of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole
community
out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before
(snoonet), it
is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned
with the
communities and specially the users who's data he has access to
via this
administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to
all
the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all
our
activities to irc.libera.chat.
Probably not the best timing, but should we consider (again) running
a
more advanced free software chat system? E.g. Outreachy uses Zulip,
Mozilla
- Matrix, there are probably more.
Yeah I'd say not the greatest timing to start such a conversation
under
pressure.
FWIF I'd rather not. The signal to noise ratio tends to be very poor on all of them with their stickers, gifs and all the active media crap embedded in them.
FWIW we face the need to paste images very often (screenshots of booting bare metal), so having a native image pasting is a plus to me.
Actually, text pasting as well. If you've ever encountered someone
pasting
50 lines of a traceback to IRC, you know why.
Other features I'm looking for include:
- Native authentication
- Chat history and offline messages
- Editing and deleting messages
i actully think this ^ in partacalar is not something we want to have. at least not for arbiary tiem because it can retoactivly cahnge the context or tone of a conversation so deleteion and modifcation should be avoid retoactivly.
I want to note that OpenStack is a huge community with a lot of not-native speakers(in terms of English). Having an opportunity to modify the message after sending it is a great feature.
yes that is true and as a native english speaker with terrible spelling if i could edit some messages after the fact to make them more clear i might use that to a limited degree. realistically i would have to fix almost every message i send. i have already corrected this message several times. that is what i ment by depeing on the period of time. if its arbitary and can be changed at any time after its sent i dont think its a great featue but if it X seconds after teh message was sent and if it alowed you to see the orginal messagei could see it as a valueble thing.
although i do feel liek we woudl be better havign this converation in a different thread/form then this specic email tread
there are pros and cons to irc and all the other options. but we should adress discussign this and any cahnge we may or may not make independtly form the current events related to freenode.
if we had the abilty to edit message have a log of the orginal and update meesage would still be valueable to have in parallel so that we can use it for documentation reasons wehn refrencing it in reviews extra and that is where my concern woudl be. maintian the archive usage of chat logs for later refrence in email and gerrit discussions.
- Threads (or any other way of sub-division of channels)
im not sure about this but in limited cases it might be useful generally thouhg spliting a channel i think woudl be a disadvantage as generally you want to have input form the channel as a whole breakout rooms can be useful from tim eto time but that is not typically the norm.
- Moderation tools (better than #openstack-unregistered which is hostile
to newcomers)
we have generel done well without needing to do active moderation. #openstack-unregistered only was put in place to stop spam which is slightly differnt the moderation in terems of kicks and bans form a channel which i dont recall ever needing to use upstream at least in the nova channel. perhaps it has happened but that type of moderation largely has been unneed and i hope it will remain that way.
Nice to have: 6) Mobile client 7) Non-trivial syntax
And yes, I do know that all of these (except for #3) can be simulated
more
or less with 3rd party tools. But this is not friendly to newcomers who don't have an own bouncer and familiarity with how things work in IRC (which does not match how things work in any other current chat - see #openstack-unregistered for an example).
Dmitry
P.S. I don't suggest the infra team maintains a matrix server. I do think that we, given how much money is made from OpenStack, can afford to do the
same
thing as Mozilla: pay Element for a hosted Matrix instance (and let them bother with scaling).
I find the current situation of putting the burden on Freenode
volunteers a
bit unfair and vote against moving to Libera for this very reason.
- jokke
Dmitry
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's
letter
which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs,
Michael
O'Neill
Big +1.
Also, it would be nice to organize some poll to get an answer of whether the community wants to check alternatives of IRC or continue using this protocol.
ср, 19 мая 2021 г. в 16:37, Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:21 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Probably not the best timing, but should we consider (again) running a more advanced free software chat system? E.g. Outreachy uses Zulip, Mozilla
- Matrix, there are probably more.
Dmitry
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
+1 for finding another IRC network. -1 for switching to an exciting new chat client.
From: Andrey Kurilin andr.kurilin@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 10:52 AM To: Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com Cc: openstack-discuss openstack-discuss@lists.openstack.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Freenode and libera.chat
CAUTION: The e-mail below is from an external source. Please exercise caution before opening attachments, clicking links, or following guidance. Big +1.
Also, it would be nice to organize some poll to get an answer of whether the community wants to check alternatives of IRC or continue using this protocol.
ср, 19 мая 2021 г. в 16:37, Dmitry Tantsur <dtantsur@redhat.commailto:dtantsur@redhat.com>:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:21 PM Erno Kuvaja <ekuvaja@redhat.commailto:ekuvaja@redhat.com> wrote: Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Probably not the best timing, but should we consider (again) running a more advanced free software chat system? E.g. Outreachy uses Zulip, Mozilla - Matrix, there are probably more.
Dmitry
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
-- Best regards, Andrey Kurilin. E-MAIL CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited.
On 2021-05-19 14:19:02 +0100 (+0100), Erno Kuvaja wrote: [...]
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
[...]
In past years when the stability of Freenode's service came into question, we've asserted that OFTC would probably have been a better home for our channels from the beginning (as they're more aligned with our community philosophies), but we ended up on Freenode mostly due to the Ubuntu community's presence there. We'd previously been unable to justify the impact to users of switching networks, but there seemed to be consensus that if Freenode shut down we'd move to OFTC. The earliest concrete proposal I can find for this was made in March 2014, but it's come up multiple times in the years since:
http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-March/028783.html
Honestly I'd be concerned about moving to a newly-established IRC network, and would much prefer the stability of a known and established one.
Honestly I'd be concerned about moving to a newly-established IRC network, and would much prefer the stability of a known and established one.
Agree. It seems to me that *if* we need to go anywhere, OFTC is the obvious place. It'll be a "take one step to the left" move for most people, and avoids the need to discuss "which" and "where" and "is there an open client for that" and "is there a *good* client for that for my platform", etc.
--Dan
I am in agreement we should move off freenode as a result of these resignations and information coming to light. IMO, we should execute a minimalistic server change to OFTC or libera, and not gum up this emergency migration with attempts to change protocol as well as server for OpenStack chats.
- Jay Faulkner
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 7:28 AM Dan Smith dms@danplanet.com wrote:
Honestly I'd be concerned about moving to a newly-established IRC network, and would much prefer the stability of a known and established one.
Agree. It seems to me that *if* we need to go anywhere, OFTC is the obvious place. It'll be a "take one step to the left" move for most people, and avoids the need to discuss "which" and "where" and "is there an open client for that" and "is there a *good* client for that for my platform", etc.
--Dan
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 4:48 PM Jay Faulkner jay.faulkner@verizonmedia.com wrote:
I am in agreement we should move off freenode as a result of these resignations and information coming to light. IMO, we should execute a minimalistic server change to OFTC or libera, and not gum up this emergency migration with attempts to change protocol as well as server for OpenStack chats.
I absolutely back this idea of a very minimalistic and least move to another network, be OFTC. For the exact reason that we have a large community that periodically uses our IRC channels, we can't just make a big bang in urgency and we need to define a reasonable transition plan for ensuring that nobody gets lost in the middle.
Also, from what I can read, there is no matter of urgency for such of a big move. I'd suggest us to continue using Freenode channels for a while, with a clear redirect message explaining visitors that we moved (and where they can find us now).
-Sylvain
-
Jay Faulkner
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 7:28 AM Dan Smith dms@danplanet.com wrote:
Honestly I'd be concerned about moving to a newly-established IRC network, and would much prefer the stability of a known and established one.
Agree. It seems to me that *if* we need to go anywhere, OFTC is the obvious place. It'll be a "take one step to the left" move for most people, and avoids the need to discuss "which" and "where" and "is there an open client for that" and "is there a *good* client for that for my platform", etc.
--Dan
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 01:49:33PM +0000, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
[...]
In past years when the stability of Freenode's service came into question, we've asserted that OFTC would probably have been a better home for our channels from the beginning (as they're more aligned with our community philosophies), but we ended up on Freenode mostly due to the Ubuntu community's presence there. We'd previously been unable to justify the impact to users of switching networks, but there seemed to be consensus that if Freenode shut down we'd move to OFTC. The earliest concrete proposal I can find for this was made in March 2014, but it's come up multiple times in the years since:
http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-March/028783.html
Honestly I'd be concerned about moving to a newly-established IRC network, and would much prefer the stability of a known and established one.
Yeah, moving to OFTC makes a lot of sense. FWIW, I've been participating on #qemu and #virt channels on OFTC for more than six years now and I've rarely seen glitches or random drops there.
(Also, agree with Dan Smith on "move one step to the left", i.e. low-to-no friction.)
Yes, pool would be great.
Please do not take this offensive, but just stating IRC survived till now and thus we should keep it is not really productive from my pov.
Why is everything what OpenStack doing/using is so complex? (Please do not comment on the items below, I’m not really interested in any answers/explanations. This is a rhetorical question) - gerrit. Yes it is great, yes it is fulfilling our needs. But how much we would lower the entry barrier for the contributions not using such complex setup that we have. - irc. Yes it survived till now. Yes it does simple things the best way. When I am online - everything is perfect (except of often connection drops). But the fun starts when I am not online (one of the simplest things for the communication platform with normally 60% of the day duration). Why should anyone care of searching any reasonably maintained IRC bouncer (or grep through eavesdrop logs), would should anyone pay for a simple mobile client? - issue tracker. You know yourself...
Onboarding new people into the OpenStack contribution is a process of multiple months (so many times done that, also with all the Student programs we do). Once you are in it for years - everything seems to be absolutely fine. But entering this world is nearly a nightmare.
I do not want to say - let’s change everything at once (or anything at all), but if we have chance we should not abandon idea of doing things better this time. In a daily work we all swim in workarounds we did for nearly everything.
Cheers
On 19. May 2021, at 16:56, Kashyap Chamarthy kchamart@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 01:49:33PM +0000, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
[...]
In past years when the stability of Freenode's service came into question, we've asserted that OFTC would probably have been a better home for our channels from the beginning (as they're more aligned with our community philosophies), but we ended up on Freenode mostly due to the Ubuntu community's presence there. We'd previously been unable to justify the impact to users of switching networks, but there seemed to be consensus that if Freenode shut down we'd move to OFTC. The earliest concrete proposal I can find for this was made in March 2014, but it's come up multiple times in the years since:
http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-March/028783.html
Honestly I'd be concerned about moving to a newly-established IRC network, and would much prefer the stability of a known and established one.
Yeah, moving to OFTC makes a lot of sense. FWIW, I've been participating on #qemu and #virt channels on OFTC for more than six years now and I've rarely seen glitches or random drops there.
(Also, agree with Dan Smith on "move one step to the left", i.e. low-to-no friction.)
-- /kashyap
On 2021-05-19 18:22:28 +0200 (+0200), Artem Goncharov wrote:
Yes, pool would be great.
Please do not take this offensive, but just stating IRC survived till now and thus we should keep it is not really productive from my pov.
Why is everything what OpenStack doing/using is so complex? (Please do not comment on the items below, I’m not really interested in any answers/explanations. This is a rhetorical question)
[...]
Thanks for letting us know that there was no point in reading the rest of your message.
On 19. May 2021, at 18:36, Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-19 18:22:28 +0200 (+0200), Artem Goncharov wrote:
Yes, pool would be great.
Please do not take this offensive, but just stating IRC survived till now and thus we should keep it is not really productive from my pov.
Why is everything what OpenStack doing/using is so complex? (Please do not comment on the items below, I’m not really interested in any answers/explanations. This is a rhetorical question)
[...]
Thanks for letting us know that there was no point in reading the rest of your message.
Uhm, harmed myself only ;-) Need to be extra careful picking wording.
On Wed, 2021-05-19 at 18:22 +0200, Artem Goncharov wrote:
Yes, pool would be great.
Please do not take this offensive, but just stating IRC survived till now and thus we should keep it is not really productive from my pov.
Why is everything what OpenStack doing/using is so complex? (Please do not comment on the items below, I’m not really interested in any answers/explanations. This is a rhetorical question)
- gerrit. Yes it is great, yes it is fulfilling our needs. But how much we would lower the entry barrier for the contributions not using such complex setup that we have.
well its significantly better then using a pull request model that is used in github or email list when it comes to code review tools or lack of them in the email case. so if gerrit is your low barriier then you have set the mark pretty high. there are few tools that actully do this as well as gerrit does.
- irc. Yes it survived till now. Yes it does simple things the best way. When I am online - everything is perfect (except of often connection drops). But the fun starts when I am not online (one of the simplest things for the communication platform with normally 60% of the day duration). Why should anyone care of searching any reasonably maintained IRC bouncer (or grep through eavesdrop logs), would should anyone pay for a simple mobile client?
- issue tracker. You know yourself...
i personlly would have prefer to use githubs issue tracker or just go back to launchpad for all project but we all have different prefrences. i personally prefer how we track issue upstream to how we track them downstrema for example with a mix of bugzilla and jira and trello concuccnetly.
having one tracker for everything or possible 2 if you work on multiple project that span both the story boad camp and launch pad camp is better then many but i still like githubs issue tracker alot. since we dont use github for development though using it for issue tracking would send mixed messages.
Onboarding new people into the OpenStack contribution is a process of multiple months (so many times done that, also with all the Student programs we do). Once you are in it for years - everything seems to be absolutely fine. But entering this world is nearly a nightmare.
that depend on where you are coming from. my experince with on boarding interns who were on workplacment was we coudl normally get the up to speed in 1-2 weeks. most of the time was not spent on irc or email or gerrit. that was the simple bit that they got more or less stait away (espically if you teach them to use git review) the challange with onboarding was always the scope and explain how the different parts interact and get ther first verions of openstack installed so they could start working with it. although we normally started smaller with just cloning a project and runing unit test with tox. then a devstack install and then the rest.
I do not want to say - let’s change everything at once (or anything at all), but if we have chance we should not abandon idea of doing things better this time. In a daily work we all swim in workarounds we did for nearly everything.
improvment are good but many of the alternivies i genuwebly dont think would actully be an improvment over what we have today. irc is proably the case we might have the most to gain in but many of the tools like slack would be a regression in fucntionality since we would loose the much of the ease of use and isntead gain unwanted feature (posting documents and images inline in messages) and higuer resouce requriemetn to run the clients. i agree that searchabilty fo the irc logs is non existing but sendign a simple url to the irc logs when you know wehre it is simple. i.e. putting a link to the converstaion i just had with someone about a feature i a gerrit review comments is trival i go todays logs and scoll down to where the converstaion was. most of the alternitive loose that share ablity or require you to have an account to view the logs or partisapate.
anyway i do think this is off topic and if we make any desisin on this it need the tc involvment as it will affect all projects. for now i dont think we should change all our ways of working and i dont generally think the tooling we use is bad. we can make imporment but i generally think that we are using some of the better options that are avaiabel today already.
Cheers
On 19. May 2021, at 16:56, Kashyap Chamarthy kchamart@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 01:49:33PM +0000, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
[...]
In past years when the stability of Freenode's service came into question, we've asserted that OFTC would probably have been a better home for our channels from the beginning (as they're more aligned with our community philosophies), but we ended up on Freenode mostly due to the Ubuntu community's presence there. We'd previously been unable to justify the impact to users of switching networks, but there seemed to be consensus that if Freenode shut down we'd move to OFTC. The earliest concrete proposal I can find for this was made in March 2014, but it's come up multiple times in the years since:
http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-March/028783.html
Honestly I'd be concerned about moving to a newly-established IRC network, and would much prefer the stability of a known and established one.
Yeah, moving to OFTC makes a lot of sense. FWIW, I've been participating on #qemu and #virt channels on OFTC for more than six years now and I've rarely seen glitches or random drops there.
(Also, agree with Dan Smith on "move one step to the left", i.e. low-to-no friction.)
-- /kashyap
On Wed, May 19, 2021, at 9:22 AM, Artem Goncharov wrote:
Yes, pool would be great.
Please do not take this offensive, but just stating IRC survived till now and thus we should keep it is not really productive from my pov.
Why is everything what OpenStack doing/using is so complex? (Please do not comment on the items below, I’m not really interested in any answers/explanations. This is a rhetorical question)
I know you explicitly asked that we not respond, but I don't find this particular approach to applying criticism to be particularly productive. Nor is it helpful to further the discussion around the Freenode situation.
I'm happy to try and re-frame these discussions on separate threads if we'd like to. Keep in mind that the tools and infrastructure we use today are largely maintained by an ever shrinking group of individuals. We do our best to meet the needs of our users (and my completely biased opinion is that we do a kick ass job with the resources we're given). That said I'm sure we can improve in a number of ways and framing that in a constructive way rather than telling us to not respond would be preferred.
- gerrit. Yes it is great, yes it is fulfilling our needs. But how much
we would lower the entry barrier for the contributions not using such complex setup that we have.
- irc. Yes it survived till now. Yes it does simple things the best
way. When I am online - everything is perfect (except of often connection drops). But the fun starts when I am not online (one of the simplest things for the communication platform with normally 60% of the day duration). Why should anyone care of searching any reasonably maintained IRC bouncer (or grep through eavesdrop logs), would should anyone pay for a simple mobile client?
- issue tracker. You know yourself...
Onboarding new people into the OpenStack contribution is a process of multiple months (so many times done that, also with all the Student programs we do). Once you are in it for years - everything seems to be absolutely fine. But entering this world is nearly a nightmare.
I do not want to say - let’s change everything at once (or anything at all), but if we have chance we should not abandon idea of doing things better this time. In a daily work we all swim in workarounds we did for nearly everything.
Cheers
On 5/19/21 6:22 PM, Artem Goncharov wrote:
Yes, pool would be great.
Please do not take this offensive, but just stating IRC survived till now and thus we should keep it is not really productive from my pov.
What about: everything else than IRC is just plain crap? Seriously, that's plain truth...
Why is everything what OpenStack doing/using is so complex? (Please do not comment on the items below, I’m not really interested in any answers/explanations. This is a rhetorical question)
- gerrit. Yes it is great, yes it is fulfilling our needs. But how much we would lower the entry barrier for the contributions not using such complex setup that we have.
- irc. Yes it survived till now. Yes it does simple things the best way. When I am online - everything is perfect (except of often connection drops). But the fun starts when I am not online (one of the simplest things for the communication platform with normally 60% of the day duration). Why should anyone care of searching any reasonably maintained IRC bouncer (or grep through eavesdrop logs), would should anyone pay for a simple mobile client?
- issue tracker. You know yourself...
Gerrit is just wonderful. What's hard isn't gerrit itself, is the way we are processing the auth, which is another problem.
As for IRC bouncer, have you ever tried Quassel? It comes with: - a heavy client on all major platforms (Linux, Windows, Mac) - a mobile client (which is quite nice, really...) - an irc bouncer that's so easy to setup
all of that integrated, in a single package. It's super super easy to setup and I love it. Please do not replace this wonder by Slack or one of its clones...
Cheers,
Thomas Goirand (zigo)
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 6:01 PM Thomas Goirand zigo@debian.org wrote:
On 5/19/21 6:22 PM, Artem Goncharov wrote:
Yes, pool would be great.
Please do not take this offensive, but just stating IRC survived till
now and thus we should keep it is not really productive from my pov.
What about: everything else than IRC is just plain crap? Seriously, that's plain truth...
So is IRC. Seriously, I like bashing Slack as much as anyone, but this goes a bit overboard. You're disrespecting a decent number of FOSS projects that put good effort in making next generation communication platforms.
Why is everything what OpenStack doing/using is so complex? (Please do
not comment on the items below, I’m not really interested in any answers/explanations. This is a rhetorical question)
- gerrit. Yes it is great, yes it is fulfilling our needs. But how much
we would lower the entry barrier for the contributions not using such complex setup that we have.
- irc. Yes it survived till now. Yes it does simple things the best way.
When I am online - everything is perfect (except of often connection drops). But the fun starts when I am not online (one of the simplest things for the communication platform with normally 60% of the day duration). Why should anyone care of searching any reasonably maintained IRC bouncer (or grep through eavesdrop logs), would should anyone pay for a simple mobile client?
- issue tracker. You know yourself...
Gerrit is just wonderful. What's hard isn't gerrit itself, is the way we are processing the auth, which is another problem.
As for IRC bouncer, have you ever tried Quassel? It comes with:
- a heavy client on all major platforms (Linux, Windows, Mac)
- a mobile client (which is quite nice, really...)
- an irc bouncer that's so easy to setup
Do I get it right that you're suggesting that YOU will maintain a free IRC bouncer for everyone who needs it for OpenStack business? Or do you suggest that everyone sets up their own one? Even outreachy interns, drive-by contributors and non-coding contributors?
In other words, "just use an IRC bouncer" shifts the problem from us to those who want to talk to us. So much for inclusiveness.
Dmitry
all of that integrated, in a single package. It's super super easy to setup and I love it. Please do not replace this wonder by Slack or one of its clones...
Cheers,
Thomas Goirand (zigo)
On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 18:06 +0200, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 6:01 PM Thomas Goirand zigo@debian.org wrote:
On 5/19/21 6:22 PM, Artem Goncharov wrote:
Yes, pool would be great.
Please do not take this offensive, but just stating IRC survived till
now and thus we should keep it is not really productive from my pov.
What about: everything else than IRC is just plain crap? Seriously, that's plain truth...
So is IRC. Seriously, I like bashing Slack as much as anyone, but this goes a bit overboard. You're disrespecting a decent number of FOSS projects that put good effort in making next generation communication platforms.
its not about slack bashing but there are types of applciation that are centralised and comercailed that have usage paridimes that many it seams in the opentack comunity today do not like. i actully had assume if we were to ever move away form irc we would move to a decentrialed plathform like matrix or similar but i think the thread has show that wile many fine the limitation of irc frustrating there are also many that find its simplicty uesful.
if we did not have gerrit, email, pastbin and etherpads to use in addtion to irc i definetly would want somethign more and again im not agaisnt something like matix or other protocol now but im also not convice those solution are more inclusive.
Why is everything what OpenStack doing/using is so complex? (Please do
not comment on the items below, I’m not really interested in any answers/explanations. This is a rhetorical question)
- gerrit. Yes it is great, yes it is fulfilling our needs. But how much
we would lower the entry barrier for the contributions not using such complex setup that we have.
- irc. Yes it survived till now. Yes it does simple things the best way.
When I am online - everything is perfect (except of often connection drops). But the fun starts when I am not online (one of the simplest things for the communication platform with normally 60% of the day duration). Why should anyone care of searching any reasonably maintained IRC bouncer (or grep through eavesdrop logs), would should anyone pay for a simple mobile client?
- issue tracker. You know yourself...
Gerrit is just wonderful. What's hard isn't gerrit itself, is the way we are processing the auth, which is another problem.
As for IRC bouncer, have you ever tried Quassel? It comes with:
- a heavy client on all major platforms (Linux, Windows, Mac)
- a mobile client (which is quite nice, really...)
- an irc bouncer that's so easy to setup
Do I get it right that you're suggesting that YOU will maintain a free IRC bouncer for everyone who needs it for OpenStack business? Or do you suggest that everyone sets up their own one? Even outreachy interns, drive-by contributors and non-coding contributors?
In other words, "just use an IRC bouncer" shifts the problem from us to those who want to talk to us. So much for inclusiveness.
for what its worth i have work on openstack for 8 year or so now and i do not and never have used an irc bouncer. granted i tend to leave my laptop connected to irc most of the time but even when i dont i dont think being conected 24/7 is required or even nessalry a good thing.
again im sure my usage patterns differ form use an i get most of the benifti of a bounce by just leaving weechat open in a window 24/7 but i do take your point that ne contibuter may not have irc, they also may not have pathform X if we were to choose a different one.
this is now well off the orginal topic but what woudl you propose we use if we were to replace irc?
Dmitry
all of that integrated, in a single package. It's super super easy to setup and I love it. Please do not replace this wonder by Slack or one of its clones...
Cheers,
Thomas Goirand (zigo)
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 7:20 PM Sean Mooney smooney@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 18:06 +0200, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 6:01 PM Thomas Goirand zigo@debian.org wrote:
On 5/19/21 6:22 PM, Artem Goncharov wrote:
Yes, pool would be great.
Please do not take this offensive, but just stating IRC survived till
now and thus we should keep it is not really productive from my pov.
What about: everything else than IRC is just plain crap? Seriously, that's plain truth...
So is IRC. Seriously, I like bashing Slack as much as anyone, but this
goes
a bit overboard. You're disrespecting a decent number of FOSS projects
that
put good effort in making next generation communication platforms.
its not about slack bashing but there are types of applciation that are centralised and comercailed that have usage paridimes that many it seams in the opentack comunity today do not like. i actully had assume if we were to ever move away form irc we would move to a decentrialed plathform like matrix or similar but i think the thread has show that wile many fine the limitation of irc frustrating there are also many that find its simplicty uesful.
It's simplicity from the hacker's perspective, not from the user's. Yes, I'm also fascinated how simple and reliable the technology is, but that's not the point.
if we did not have gerrit, email, pastbin and etherpads to use in addtion to irc i definetly would want somethign more and again im not agaisnt something like matix or other protocol now but im also not convice those solution are more inclusive.
Same comment as above. Look at this problem from the perspective of a person who doesn't have a single clue how IRC is different from ICQ and what a bouncer is.
Why is everything what OpenStack doing/using is so complex? (Please
do
not comment on the items below, I’m not really interested in any answers/explanations. This is a rhetorical question)
- gerrit. Yes it is great, yes it is fulfilling our needs. But how
much
we would lower the entry barrier for the contributions not using such complex setup that we have.
- irc. Yes it survived till now. Yes it does simple things the best
way.
When I am online - everything is perfect (except of often connection drops). But the fun starts when I am not online (one of the simplest
things
for the communication platform with normally 60% of the day duration).
Why
should anyone care of searching any reasonably maintained IRC bouncer
(or
grep through eavesdrop logs), would should anyone pay for a simple
mobile
client?
- issue tracker. You know yourself...
Gerrit is just wonderful. What's hard isn't gerrit itself, is the way
we
are processing the auth, which is another problem.
As for IRC bouncer, have you ever tried Quassel? It comes with:
- a heavy client on all major platforms (Linux, Windows, Mac)
- a mobile client (which is quite nice, really...)
- an irc bouncer that's so easy to setup
Do I get it right that you're suggesting that YOU will maintain a free
IRC
bouncer for everyone who needs it for OpenStack business? Or do you
suggest
that everyone sets up their own one? Even outreachy interns, drive-by contributors and non-coding contributors?
In other words, "just use an IRC bouncer" shifts the problem from us to those who want to talk to us. So much for inclusiveness.
for what its worth i have work on openstack for 8 year or so now and i do not and never have used an irc bouncer. granted i tend to leave my laptop connected to irc most of the time but even when i dont i dont think being conected 24/7 is required or even nessalry a good thing.
Well, if somebody asks a question on #openstack-ironic at 5am my time, the only chance they'll get an answer is if they stay online. Or realize they need to come online at a different, potentially inconvenient time. (Or use email, but sigh. People nowadays use emails as the last resort :( )
And I only learn about their question because *I* have a bouncer. If I did not, I would have to go through the channel logs (I even forget to check the logs from our meetings, soo.. unlikely).
again im sure my usage patterns differ form use an i get most of the benifti of a bounce by just leaving weechat open in a window 24/7 but i do take your point that ne contibuter may not have irc, they also may not have pathform X if we were to choose a different one.
Most platforms have a web client and server-side history, so this is not an issue. There is IRCCloud, but the free plan seems to offer only 2 hours of "offline" time.
this is now well off the orginal topic but what woudl you propose we use if we were to replace irc?
This is, indeed, not quite on-topic, but I'm advocating for Matrix, mostly because that's where Mozilla went and because it seems to check all the boxes. I definitely do *not* suggest Slack, at least because it's proprietary.
Dmitry
Dmitry
all of that integrated, in a single package. It's super super easy to setup and I love it. Please do not replace this wonder by Slack or one of its clones...
Cheers,
Thomas Goirand (zigo)
On 2021-05-20 21:28:26 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote: [...]
This is, indeed, not quite on-topic, but I'm advocating for Matrix, mostly because that's where Mozilla went and because it seems to check all the boxes.
[...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:41 PM Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-20 21:28:26 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote: [...]
This is, indeed, not quite on-topic, but I'm advocating for Matrix, mostly because that's where Mozilla went and because it seems to check all the boxes.
[...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
Not quite. It would probably solve the issues *for me*, but I've already solved most of my issues. If we still say "our official communication channel is IRC", that's what people will (try to) use.
If we do get an easy "hey, press this button to talk to ironic folks", it may change my mind though. Right now it seems to be IRCCloud, but I'm a bit uneasy about recommending everyone to go through some private service, especially about putting something like that in our contributor's guide.
Dmitry
-- Jeremy Stanley
On 2021-05-20 21:58:52 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:41 PM Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
[...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
Not quite. It would probably solve the issues *for me*, but I've already solved most of my issues. If we still say "our official communication channel is IRC", that's what people will (try to) use.
If we do get an easy "hey, press this button to talk to ironic folks", it may change my mind though. Right now it seems to be IRCCloud, but I'm a bit uneasy about recommending everyone to go through some private service, especially about putting something like that in our contributor's guide.
Well, I guess what I'm asking is, if there were a Matrix bridge for the #openstack-ironic IRC channel, would that be sufficient for Ironic to be able to update its documentation with an "easy button" pointed at Matrix instead of IRC, and connect new users on Matrix with traditional IRC users for discussion?
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 10:11 PM Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-20 21:58:52 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:41 PM Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org
wrote: [...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
Not quite. It would probably solve the issues *for me*, but I've already solved most of my issues. If we still say "our official communication channel is IRC", that's what people will (try to) use.
If we do get an easy "hey, press this button to talk to ironic folks", it may change my mind though. Right now it seems to be IRCCloud, but I'm a
bit
uneasy about recommending everyone to go through some private service, especially about putting something like that in our contributor's guide.
Well, I guess what I'm asking is, if there were a Matrix bridge for the #openstack-ironic IRC channel, would that be sufficient for Ironic to be able to update its documentation with an "easy button" pointed at Matrix instead of IRC, and connect new users on Matrix with traditional IRC users for discussion?
Probably yes, assuming we can integrate Matrix with NickServ or drop the NickServ requirement.
Dmitry
-- Jeremy Stanley
On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 12:35 PM Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 10:11 PM Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-20 21:58:52 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:41 PM Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org
wrote: [...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
Not quite. It would probably solve the issues *for me*, but I've already solved most of my issues. If we still say "our official communication channel is IRC", that's what people will (try to) use.
If we do get an easy "hey, press this button to talk to ironic folks",
it
may change my mind though. Right now it seems to be IRCCloud, but I'm a
bit
uneasy about recommending everyone to go through some private service, especially about putting something like that in our contributor's guide.
Well, I guess what I'm asking is, if there were a Matrix bridge for the #openstack-ironic IRC channel, would that be sufficient for Ironic to be able to update its documentation with an "easy button" pointed at Matrix instead of IRC, and connect new users on Matrix with traditional IRC users for discussion?
Probably yes, assuming we can integrate Matrix with NickServ or drop the NickServ requirement.
Great, so now when we have established that Ironic can point to matrix,
slack or whatever the current IM buzzword is (oh wait, that's right slack killed their IRC bridge after reaching the critical mass, fortunately that can't happen to any of the others 'cause how confusing that would be for the new contributors). Can we please focus on the issue at the hand and do something about the network change? I'd be still pro for libera but looks like OFTC would be just fine too (expect some nick changes 'though).
- jokke
Dmitry
-- Jeremy Stanley
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 1:43 PM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 12:35 PM Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 10:11 PM Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-20 21:58:52 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:41 PM Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org
wrote: [...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
Not quite. It would probably solve the issues *for me*, but I've
already
solved most of my issues. If we still say "our official communication channel is IRC", that's what people will (try to) use.
If we do get an easy "hey, press this button to talk to ironic folks",
it
may change my mind though. Right now it seems to be IRCCloud, but I'm
a bit
uneasy about recommending everyone to go through some private service, especially about putting something like that in our contributor's
guide.
Well, I guess what I'm asking is, if there were a Matrix bridge for the #openstack-ironic IRC channel, would that be sufficient for Ironic to be able to update its documentation with an "easy button" pointed at Matrix instead of IRC, and connect new users on Matrix with traditional IRC users for discussion?
Probably yes, assuming we can integrate Matrix with NickServ or drop the NickServ requirement.
Great, so now when we have established that Ironic can point to matrix,
slack or whatever the current IM buzzword is (oh wait, that's right slack killed their IRC bridge after reaching the critical mass, fortunately that can't happen to any of the others 'cause how confusing that would be for the new contributors). Can we please focus on the issue at the hand and do something about the network change? I'd be still pro for libera but looks like OFTC would be just fine too (expect some nick changes 'though).
That bloody newcomers with their buzzwords, should we just forget about them? Maybe have a bot that asks a tricky git question on join and bans whoever cannot respond to it?
Seriously, the attitude in this thread is disturbing. FOSS is no longer an realm of bearded dudes with messy hair (hey, I only have messy hair!). People matter. People who cannot install an IRC bouncer matter. People who are too busy to play with our favourite toys matter. Such a small thing as "how easy it is to talk to them" can be a deciding factor between us and not-us.
I'm fine with focusing on the issue at hand, but I'm not fine pretending that we're not explicitly exclusive with our choice of tools. Necessarily so in case of gerrit, purely by choice in case of IRC.
Dmitry
- jokke
Dmitry
-- Jeremy Stanley
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
On Thu, May 20, 2021, 21:42 Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-20 21:28:26 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote: [...]
This is, indeed, not quite on-topic, but I'm advocating for Matrix, mostly because that's where Mozilla went and because it seems to check all the boxes.
[...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
Same can Zulip do (our company runs own instance). But generally yes, this would address at least my concerns.
Artem
On 2021-05-20 22:04:27 +0200 (+0200), Artem Goncharov wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021, 21:42 Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-20 21:28:26 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote: [...]
This is, indeed, not quite on-topic, but I'm advocating for Matrix, mostly because that's where Mozilla went and because it seems to check all the boxes.
[...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
Same can Zulip do (our company runs own instance). But generally yes, this would address at least my concerns.
Similarly, it seems like projects could then add a Zulip/IRC bridge for their channels if they wanted (and maybe that would even three-way bridge IRC, Matrix, and Zulip users?).
On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 20:11 +0000, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-20 22:04:27 +0200 (+0200), Artem Goncharov wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021, 21:42 Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-20 21:28:26 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote: [...]
This is, indeed, not quite on-topic, but I'm advocating for Matrix, mostly because that's where Mozilla went and because it seems to check all the boxes.
[...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
Same can Zulip do (our company runs own instance). But generally yes, this would address at least my concerns.
Similarly, it seems like projects could then add a Zulip/IRC bridge for their channels if they wanted (and maybe that would even three-way bridge IRC, Matrix, and Zulip users?).
matix has a number of clinets https://matrix.org/clients/ including what looks like two web based ones https://element.io/get-started and https://fluffychat.im/ not sure how well they work in practic it kind of sound like a matix bridge and a hosted version fo say https://matrix.org/docs/projects/client/element whic is apache 2 liscents woudl sovle that use case since ironci could say go to webchat.o.o and connect to the ironci channel or soemthing like that kindo fo like how https://webchat.freenode.net/ works as web interface to irc.
if you click the try now button on https://matrix.org/ it send you to https://element.io/get-started where you can open in bowser or down lond the moble or desktop aps so it looks liek its endorced by matix as how new user can get started quickly.
you could proably even user there hsoted version at https://app.element.io/?pk_vid=162154222536360a#/welcome
matrix have bridge to freenod and oftc already https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/wiki/Bridged-IRC-network...
not really sure about zulip but there is a brdige bot https://matrix.org/docs/projects/bridge/matrix-zulip-bridgebot
On Thu, May 20, 2021, 22:30 Sean Mooney smooney@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 20:11 +0000, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-20 22:04:27 +0200 (+0200), Artem Goncharov wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021, 21:42 Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-20 21:28:26 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote: [...]
This is, indeed, not quite on-topic, but I'm advocating for Matrix, mostly because that's where Mozilla went and because it seems to check all the boxes.
[...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
Same can Zulip do (our company runs own instance). But generally yes,
this
would address at least my concerns.
Similarly, it seems like projects could then add a Zulip/IRC bridge for their channels if they wanted (and maybe that would even three-way bridge IRC, Matrix, and Zulip users?).
matix has a number of clinets https://matrix.org/clients/ including what looks like two web based ones https://element.io/get-started and https://fluffychat.im/ not sure how well they work in practic it kind of sound like a matix bridge and a hosted version fo say https://matrix.org/docs/projects/client/element whic is apache 2 liscents woudl sovle that use case since ironci could say go to webchat.o.o and connect to the ironci channel or soemthing like that kindo fo like how https://webchat.freenode.net/ works as web interface to irc.
if you click the try now button on https://matrix.org/ it send you to https://element.io/get-started where you can open in bowser or down lond the moble or desktop aps so it looks liek its endorced by matix as how new user can get started quickly.
you could proably even user there hsoted version at https://app.element.io/?pk_vid=162154222536360a#/welcome
matrix have bridge to freenod and oftc already
https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/wiki/Bridged-IRC-network...
not really sure about zulip but there is a brdige bot https://matrix.org/docs/projects/bridge/matrix-zulip-bridgebot
Thanks guys, finally we reached constructive discussion and not the religious fight.
As long as bridge is repeating messages in both directions I think it can address most concerns. This feels cool, feels democratic, but not an unified way (not saying it's bad). Agree with Dmitriy that it feels like each team using some own stuff, and not as a single community. But giving teams flexibility is also great.
On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 22:43 +0200, Artem Goncharov wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021, 22:30 Sean Mooney smooney@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 20:11 +0000, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-20 22:04:27 +0200 (+0200), Artem Goncharov wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021, 21:42 Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-20 21:28:26 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote: [...]
This is, indeed, not quite on-topic, but I'm advocating for Matrix, mostly because that's where Mozilla went and because it seems to check all the boxes.
[...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
Same can Zulip do (our company runs own instance). But generally yes,
this
would address at least my concerns.
Similarly, it seems like projects could then add a Zulip/IRC bridge for their channels if they wanted (and maybe that would even three-way bridge IRC, Matrix, and Zulip users?).
matix has a number of clinets https://matrix.org/clients/ including what looks like two web based ones https://element.io/get-started and https://fluffychat.im/ not sure how well they work in practic it kind of sound like a matix bridge and a hosted version fo say https://matrix.org/docs/projects/client/element whic is apache 2 liscents woudl sovle that use case since ironci could say go to webchat.o.o and connect to the ironci channel or soemthing like that kindo fo like how https://webchat.freenode.net/ works as web interface to irc.
if you click the try now button on https://matrix.org/ it send you to https://element.io/get-started where you can open in bowser or down lond the moble or desktop aps so it looks liek its endorced by matix as how new user can get started quickly.
you could proably even user there hsoted version at https://app.element.io/?pk_vid=162154222536360a#/welcome
matrix have bridge to freenod and oftc already
https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/wiki/Bridged-IRC-network...
not really sure about zulip but there is a brdige bot https://matrix.org/docs/projects/bridge/matrix-zulip-bridgebot
just to keep pepole in the loop the irc bridge in matix works pretty well other then needint to auth to nickserve because we require regeistered nics which is documented here https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/wiki/Guide:-How-to-use-M... i was able to connect vai https://app.element.io/ and talk to in the infra channel with an old matix account i have http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-infra/latest.log.html#t2...
the sign in process and account creation process is also pretty trival since you can use github or an exisitng google account amoung several others. so for those looking to use matrix you can do that today.
i previously used this on my phone with the riot client in the past but just went fo driect irc more recently not aht i use etiehr on mobile frequently. just an fyi for those that were interested.
Thanks guys, finally we reached constructive discussion and not the religious fight.
As long as bridge is repeating messages in both directions I think it can address most concerns. This feels cool, feels democratic, but not an unified way (not saying it's bad). Agree with Dmitriy that it feels like each team using some own stuff, and not as a single community. But giving teams flexibility is also great.
On 20/05/21 3:39 pm, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-20 21:28:26 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote: [...]
This is, indeed, not quite on-topic, but I'm advocating for Matrix, mostly because that's where Mozilla went and because it seems to check all the boxes.
[...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
Here's the problem: IRC authentication is a disaster.
Matrix authentication is decent by all accounts.
If you bridge a system with decent authentication to a system where authentication is a disaster, you get a disaster (see also: Schopenhauer's Law of Entropy).
IRC works fine for me and you because we made it fine by doing stuff that has the effect of excluding casual users and new contributors.
Although I think OFTC was always a better choice than Freenode ever was, the reality is that by moving there we will continue to exclude new people in this way, plus we'll lose a few of the old people along the way (and maybe even manage to completely fragment the community, judging by some of the comments in this subthread).
IMHO by refusing to consider Matrix we are missing an opportunity to make the community more open while only paying the cost of moving once. Instead it appears we are going to pay the (community) cost without getting any of the benefits.
cheers, Zane.
I don't think it's THAT bad. I never in my life used IRC until I had to for the openstack-operators meetings. IRCCloud was easy enough. Then the mandatory nick registration thing happened and indeed I struggled there, but I got over it - people were helpful, there are many options and many people with experience of IRC in the openstack community willing to help.
Maybe Matrix would be better, but I don't think a complete jump from IRC to Matrix could have been done in time (see Clark Boylan's message about this further up this thread). On May 14th when I sent one of the early reports of this issue to this list it was far off and confusing-seeming. By today the move was arguably already very late. 12 days in and there's worry that the openstack channels will be taken over by shadowy forces.
As Joel Spolsky once quipped "delivery is a feature, your product should have it"
Chris
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 4:30 PM Zane Bitter zbitter@redhat.com wrote:
On 20/05/21 3:39 pm, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-20 21:28:26 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote: [...]
This is, indeed, not quite on-topic, but I'm advocating for Matrix, mostly because that's where Mozilla went and because it seems to check all the boxes.
[...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
Here's the problem: IRC authentication is a disaster.
Matrix authentication is decent by all accounts.
If you bridge a system with decent authentication to a system where authentication is a disaster, you get a disaster (see also: Schopenhauer's Law of Entropy).
IRC works fine for me and you because we made it fine by doing stuff that has the effect of excluding casual users and new contributors.
Although I think OFTC was always a better choice than Freenode ever was, the reality is that by moving there we will continue to exclude new people in this way, plus we'll lose a few of the old people along the way (and maybe even manage to completely fragment the community, judging by some of the comments in this subthread).
IMHO by refusing to consider Matrix we are missing an opportunity to make the community more open while only paying the cost of moving once. Instead it appears we are going to pay the (community) cost without getting any of the benefits.
cheers, Zane.
On 2021-05-26 16:29:12 -0400 (-0400), Zane Bitter wrote: [...]
Here's the problem: IRC authentication is a disaster.
Matrix authentication is decent by all accounts.
If you bridge a system with decent authentication to a system where authentication is a disaster, you get a disaster (see also: Schopenhauer's Law of Entropy).
Yep, I get that. Or more precisely, the IRC protocol was not designed for authentication so everyone's rolled their own competing solutions. If you're primarily relying on IRC for things where authentication is irrelevant then it's no big deal, but there are certainly times when you do want to trust that someone on IRC is who they claim to be, and that's when things get harder.
IRC works fine for me and you because we made it fine by doing stuff that has the effect of excluding casual users and new contributors.
I think you sell newcomers short by assuming they're mentally incompetent to the point they're incapable of rational thought.
Although I think OFTC was always a better choice than Freenode ever was, the reality is that by moving there we will continue to exclude new people in this way, plus we'll lose a few of the old people along the way (and maybe even manage to completely fragment the community, judging by some of the comments in this subthread).
IMHO by refusing to consider Matrix we are missing an opportunity to make the community more open while only paying the cost of moving once. Instead it appears we are going to pay the (community) cost without getting any of the benefits.
So, here's the thing. What we have (from OpenDev's perspective) is some IRC bots connected to Freenode. We can leave them there, point them to a different IRC network, or turn them off. If someone comes along with replacement code which talks native Matrix protocol we can look at running that too, but it's not something we have now nor something we'll reasonably be able to come up with in the short span of time people feel evacuating Freenode warrants.
Also feel free to talk about OpenStack topics on Matrix-only channels; people already talk about OpenStack in lots of places which aren't IRC. If enough people prefer to do that, then it's probably not that hard to get others to join there. Once all the interesting discussions are happening on those channels then I expect IRC to fall into disuse on its own anyway. The IRC client I use already has a Matrix plug-in, so I can connect to Matrix-only channels with it just as if they were on yet another IRC network, and am personally happy to do so if and when the need arises.
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 1:35 PM Zane Bitter zbitter@redhat.com wrote:
On 20/05/21 3:39 pm, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-20 21:28:26 +0200 (+0200), Dmitry Tantsur wrote: [...]
This is, indeed, not quite on-topic, but I'm advocating for Matrix, mostly because that's where Mozilla went and because it seems to check all the boxes.
[...]
It seems, from what little I've read, that Matrix servers can integrate with IRC server networks and bridge channels fairly seamlessly. If there were a Matrix bridge providing access to the same channels as people were participating in via IRC (wherever that happened to be), would that address your concerns?
Here's the problem: IRC authentication is a disaster.
Matrix authentication is decent by all accounts.
If you bridge a system with decent authentication to a system where authentication is a disaster, you get a disaster (see also: Schopenhauer's Law of Entropy).
IRC works fine for me and you because we made it fine by doing stuff that has the effect of excluding casual users and new contributors.
Although I think OFTC was always a better choice than Freenode ever was, the reality is that by moving there we will continue to exclude new people in this way, plus we'll lose a few of the old people along the way (and maybe even manage to completely fragment the community, judging by some of the comments in this subthread).
IMHO by refusing to consider Matrix we are missing an opportunity to make the community more open while only paying the cost of moving once. Instead it appears we are going to pay the (community) cost without getting any of the benefits.
cheers, Zane.
I want to take one moment to kind of circle back to this. Nobody on the call where the TC, and numerous community leaders discussed this whole situation earlier today, ever ruled this out. The consensus and focus at this time was the short term continuity of being able to communicate and maintain community culture/tooling while freenode... frankly... grows into a larger, more impressive tire fire as each day passes.
Many of the community leaders I've spoken with agree, we need to do better or we need to do more. But we also still need to get work done while we figure out the new things and ensure we have some level of community continuity. That was the consensus and driver to make the decision which was made this morning as the grim reality set with regards to the state and path Freenode is on. Reality is that on some level, we will always be bridged across multiple networks, channels, tools, and ultimately protocols. There is no one solution to make everyone happy, so the immediate focus is on short term continuity as we evolve. So the next step is ultimately choosing the *next* places to evolve and communicate and somehow providing the cross reference, since we all face the grim reality that multiple networks always have and will continue to be a thing regardless of rooms on matrix, discord, or Frank the plushy Shark's fancy new webchat app.
On 5/20/21 6:06 PM, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
Do I get it right that you're suggesting that YOU will maintain a free IRC bouncer for everyone who needs it for OpenStack business? Or do you suggest that everyone sets up their own one? Even outreachy interns, drive-by contributors and non-coding contributors?
Of course not. A bouncer has never been a requirement, it's a convenience. You can also run a text based version of IRC on a screen in any Unix. If price is a problem, AWS is providing 1/2 CPU for free, if I'm not mistaking. That's enough for a bouncer or a screen session.
In other words, "just use an IRC bouncer" shifts the problem from us to those who want to talk to us. So much for inclusiveness.
"just use an IRC bouncer" is just the answer to "I'm not always connected, and I don't have the logs when I'm not there". The answer to it could also be: well, when you sleep, you can't answer anyway, can you? It's supposed to be instant messaging, what's the point then? For async stuff, there's email...
Anyway, that's not the main point. The main point is that I very much prefer to have the chat logs under *MY* hands than on the one of *ANY* operator. I'm happy that the IRC bouncer that *I* own does the logging, and that logging isn't a feature of the server side.
No, I do not want that anyone keeps any logs of the things on IRC. I don't like it. I would prefer if the Foundation was not keeping any IRC log using some bots. If that's useful, then please erase these logs after a month. Otherwise, it's like putting a microphone in my office, and listening to what I say to my colleagues (at least, it's the same feeling).
Cheers,
Thomas Goirand (zigo)
On 2021-05-20 20:52:30 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote: [...]
No, I do not want that anyone keeps any logs of the things on IRC. I don't like it. I would prefer if the Foundation was not keeping any IRC log using some bots. If that's useful, then please erase these logs after a month. Otherwise, it's like putting a microphone in my office, and listening to what I say to my colleagues (at least, it's the same feeling).
"The foundation" isn't doing anything in particular related to IRC. The OpenDev Collaboratory on the other hand runs an IRC bot which channels can opt into for long-term logging of discussions. Those logs are published here:
http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/
Some, like #openstack-dev, have (quite literally) a decade of historical channel logs. I see it as an important archival record of the project's open development and design, almost all the way back to its very origins.
On 2021-05-19 13:49:33 +0000 (+0000), Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-19 14:19:02 +0100 (+0100), Erno Kuvaja wrote: [...]
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
[...]
In past years when the stability of Freenode's service came into question, we've asserted that OFTC would probably have been a better home for our channels from the beginning (as they're more aligned with our community philosophies), but we ended up on Freenode mostly due to the Ubuntu community's presence there. We'd previously been unable to justify the impact to users of switching networks, but there seemed to be consensus that if Freenode shut down we'd move to OFTC. The earliest concrete proposal I can find for this was made in March 2014, but it's come up multiple times in the years since:
http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-March/028783.html
Honestly I'd be concerned about moving to a newly-established IRC network, and would much prefer the stability of a known and established one.
I've also spent last night catching up all our channel registrations on OFTC. The ~150 active channels in which we operate our IRC bots are now registered to us there and under our control, with a handful of exceptions where I need to follow up with folks today to get our accessbot account added. Switching to OFTC at this point would be fairly quick, at least from an infrastructure perspective.
On Wed, 19 May 2021 14:19:02 +0100 Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
I would prefer to take a deliberate action instead.
The leaders of the split admit that their actions were planned in advance. It says so at their website:
"In early 2021, that changed. ... This was the writing on the wall. As a precautionary measure, we began laying the groundwork for what would become Libera.Chat."
So they were plotting this for a long time and we're supposed to jump swiftly? That doesn't seem very fair.
-- Pete
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:23 AM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
There is two sides to each story, this is the other one:
https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss
I recommend that so long that we don't have any problems, we keep things as is.
On 5/20/2021 7:21 AM, Mohammed Naser wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:23 AM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
There is two sides to each story, this is the other one:
https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss
I recommend that so long that we don't have any problems, we keep things as is.
All,
I feel better now that we have heard from the other side of the equation. Agree with mnaser that it appears that we do not need to make any quick decisions and can keep an eye on things for the time being.
Based on the other threads that this discussion has started it appears that members of the community would like to discuss other possible forms of communication. Doing so is a healthy exercise, but I think it would be a mistake to make any hasty decisions driven by the current state of Freenode.
Jay
(jungleboyj)
It appears that Andrew Lee is the same person who ruined snoonet. I don't believe anything he says, and vote for moving to another IRC platform.
-----Original Message----- From: Jay Bryant jungleboyj@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 9:01 AM To: openstack-discuss@lists.openstack.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Freenode and libera.chat
CAUTION: The e-mail below is from an external source. Please exercise caution before opening attachments, clicking links, or following guidance.
On 5/20/2021 7:21 AM, Mohammed Naser wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:23 AM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
There is two sides to each story, this is the other one:
https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss
I recommend that so long that we don't have any problems, we keep things as is.
All,
I feel better now that we have heard from the other side of the equation. Agree with mnaser that it appears that we do not need to make any quick decisions and can keep an eye on things for the time being.
Based on the other threads that this discussion has started it appears that members of the community would like to discuss other possible forms of communication. Doing so is a healthy exercise, but I think it would be a mistake to make any hasty decisions driven by the current state of Freenode.
Jay
(jungleboyj)
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On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 2:24 PM Mohammed Naser mnaser@vexxhost.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:23 AM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee
has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it
is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all
the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter
which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
There is two sides to each story, this is the other one:
https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss
I recommend that so long that we don't have any problems, we keep things as is.
Well, we already have a problem: ruined trust from the participants. We've had people explicitly voicing their undesire to use freenode any longer. Given that IRC is already not very inclusive (see my other emails), we may end up with several disjointed chats for different community members - exactly the thing we want to avoid.
-1 to pretending that nothing has happened.
Dmitry
-- Mohammed Naser VEXXHOST, Inc.
On 20. May 2021, at 15:46, Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 2:24 PM Mohammed Naser <mnaser@vexxhost.com mailto:mnaser@vexxhost.com> wrote: On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:23 AM Erno Kuvaja <ekuvaja@redhat.com mailto:ekuvaja@redhat.com> wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
There is two sides to each story, this is the other one:
https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss
I recommend that so long that we don't have any problems, we keep things as is.
Well, we already have a problem: ruined trust from the participants. We've had people explicitly voicing their undesire to use freenode any longer. Given that IRC is already not very inclusive (see my other emails), we may end up with several disjointed chats for different community members - exactly the thing we want to avoid.
-1 to pretending that nothing has happened.
+1 on -1
Dmitry
-- Mohammed Naser VEXXHOST, Inc.
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 15:58 +0200, Artem Goncharov wrote:
On 20. May 2021, at 15:46, Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 2:24 PM Mohammed Naser <mnaser@vexxhost.com mailto:mnaser@vexxhost.com> wrote: On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:23 AM Erno Kuvaja <ekuvaja@redhat.com mailto:ekuvaja@redhat.com> wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
There is two sides to each story, this is the other one:
https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss
I recommend that so long that we don't have any problems, we keep things as is.
Well, we already have a problem: ruined trust from the participants. We've had people explicitly voicing their undesire to use freenode any longer. Given that IRC is already not very inclusive (see my other emails), we may end up with several disjointed chats for different community members - exactly the thing we want to avoid.
-1 to pretending that nothing has happened.
+1 on -1
well we already kind of have that with many of our chineese contiutors using wechat instead. i dont think may of the coparte chat service are more inclusive then irc. e.g. i woudl rate slack as less inclusive since it actively prevent bridging to other services and may or may not be avaiable in different gograpical regoins. https://www.travelchinacheaper.com/index-blocked-websites-in-china https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China otehr distibuted/selfhosted comuntionation network like matrix can certenly work but wehn looking options we have to take that into account.
not everyone can access every service or has the bandwith to do so and useing somehtin light wight like irc give us the possiblity to reach more peopel.
for what its worth hermes which is no end of line unfortunetly was a greate mobile irc client https://github.com/numixproject/android-app-suite/tree/master/Hermes and https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ruesga.rview&gl=IE is a pretty good mobile client for gerrit both of which i have used wehn traveling to ptgs in the past when i have needed to interact with our exstiing tools away form a laptop/pc.
Dmitry
-- Mohammed Naser VEXXHOST, Inc.
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
On 20. May 2021, at 16:38, Sean Mooney smooney@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 15:58 +0200, Artem Goncharov wrote:
On 20. May 2021, at 15:46, Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 2:24 PM Mohammed Naser <mnaser@vexxhost.com mailto:mnaser@vexxhost.com> wrote: On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:23 AM Erno Kuvaja <ekuvaja@redhat.com mailto:ekuvaja@redhat.com> wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
There is two sides to each story, this is the other one:
https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss
I recommend that so long that we don't have any problems, we keep things as is.
Well, we already have a problem: ruined trust from the participants. We've had people explicitly voicing their undesire to use freenode any longer. Given that IRC is already not very inclusive (see my other emails), we may end up with several disjointed chats for different community members - exactly the thing we want to avoid.
-1 to pretending that nothing has happened.
+1 on -1
well we already kind of have that with many of our chineese contiutors using wechat instead. i dont think may of the coparte chat service are more inclusive then irc. e.g. i woudl rate slack as less inclusive since it actively prevent bridging to other services and may or may not be avaiable in different gograpical regoins.
So far I hear Slack is bad, Slack is bad. But nobody proposed we should switch to Slack (I am myself not fan of it). Instead we first need to admit there are issues with existing solution and start thinking how to deal with that (I feel exactly this ack is not what we all share).
Feels like “IRC is a religion” and thus this arguing.
https://www.travelchinacheaper.com/index-blocked-websites-in-china https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China otehr distibuted/selfhosted comuntionation network like matrix can certenly work but wehn looking options we have to take that into account.
+1
not everyone can access every service or has the bandwith to do so and useing somehtin light wight like irc give us the possiblity to reach more peopel.
for what its worth hermes which is no end of line unfortunetly was a greate mobile irc client https://github.com/numixproject/android-app-suite/tree/master/Hermes and https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ruesga.rview&gl=IE is a pretty good mobile client for gerrit both of which i have used wehn traveling to ptgs in the past when i have needed to interact with our exstiing tools away form a laptop/pc.
And here there is some sort of contradiction (or at least me disagreeing): IRC due to its age and as a consequence absence of modern (and, importantly, maintained) tools and apps is not really helping to reach more people. I am personally struggling to find any working irc bouncer (I even already thrown away idea of having mobile app at all). My colleagues are not present in IRC at all due to that reason (it is simply not worth of invest).
For the links you gave I think that Gerrit has reasonably good mobile WebUI support (last months I am fine with eventually reviewing/approving/rechecking changes from mobile browser). For IRC you can say there is nothing like that (due to the protocol specifics).
Dmitry
-- Mohammed Naser VEXXHOST, Inc.
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
Well, we already have a problem: ruined trust from the participants.
We've had people explicitly voicing their undesire to use freenode any longer.
I am one of these people. OpenStack channels remain the only place I exist on Freenode, and I'm giving the community a short grace period to migrate, or else I'll be forced to stop using IRC as a communication method.
As we have many folks in our community who are invested in free software and the communities around them, I can't imagine I'm the only person unwilling to continue usage of an IRC network that's been taken over in a hostile manner and wrested from the control of democratically elected volunteers.
- Jay Faulkner
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 6:52 AM Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 2:24 PM Mohammed Naser mnaser@vexxhost.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:23 AM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee
has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it
is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all
the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twitter.com_freenodestaff&d=DwMFaQ&c=sWW_bEwW_mLyN3Kx2v57Q8e-CRbmiT9yOhqES_g_wVY&r=NKR1jXf8to59hDGraABDUb4djWcsAXM11_v4c7uz0Tg&m=xyeL1zKdco52ULLb8iHlzIduIic2EF7UEQQjv5F9lWk&s=TSHzp_pyffg_r_scEmA4MLjplkrOZVJKGqNH6F8yUoY&e= and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__fuchsnet.ch_freenode-2Dresign-2Dletter.txt&d=DwMFaQ&c=sWW_bEwW_mLyN3Kx2v57Q8e-CRbmiT9yOhqES_g_wVY&r=NKR1jXf8to59hDGraABDUb4djWcsAXM11_v4c7uz0Tg&m=xyeL1zKdco52ULLb8iHlzIduIic2EF7UEQQjv5F9lWk&s=NIO5eH8_VyD5rsbvEwkYTbGp1haQ9T6GKow6b06bkvc&e=
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
There is two sides to each story, this is the other one:
https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__freenode.net_news_freenode-2Dis-2Dfoss&d=DwMFaQ&c=sWW_bEwW_mLyN3Kx2v57Q8e-CRbmiT9yOhqES_g_wVY&r=NKR1jXf8to59hDGraABDUb4djWcsAXM11_v4c7uz0Tg&m=xyeL1zKdco52ULLb8iHlzIduIic2EF7UEQQjv5F9lWk&s=rtWuVgVDaM9DbHw0c9MEGXj-6dckvOv86yyaXh4b-Ik&e=
I recommend that so long that we don't have any problems, we keep things as is.
Well, we already have a problem: ruined trust from the participants. We've had people explicitly voicing their undesire to use freenode any longer. Given that IRC is already not very inclusive (see my other emails), we may end up with several disjointed chats for different community members - exactly the thing we want to avoid.
-1 to pretending that nothing has happened.
Dmitry
-- Mohammed Naser VEXXHOST, Inc.
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__de.redhat.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=sWW_bEwW_mLyN3Kx2v57Q8e-CRbmiT9yOhqES_g_wVY&r=NKR1jXf8to59hDGraABDUb4djWcsAXM11_v4c7uz0Tg&m=xyeL1zKdco52ULLb8iHlzIduIic2EF7UEQQjv5F9lWk&s=LHg2maXOiT9ZwzQ5a7F3YOKvqh-ZVQlLIrNElgBUnJs&e= , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
---- On Thu, 20 May 2021 07:21:14 -0500 Mohammed Naser mnaser@vexxhost.com wrote ----
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:23 AM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
There is two sides to each story, this is the other one:
https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss
I recommend that so long that we don't have any problems, we keep things as is.
I agree on this and not to be in hurry to take any decision. Let's wait and monitor the situation.
-gmann
-- Mohammed Naser VEXXHOST, Inc.
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 1:21 PM Mohammed Naser mnaser@vexxhost.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:23 AM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee
has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it
is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all
the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter
which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
There is two sides to each story, this is the other one:
https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss
I recommend that so long that we don't have any problems, we keep things as is.
-- Mohammed Naser VEXXHOST, Inc.
I'm clearly not the only one concerned about this approach. Just to reiterate that Mr. Lee has history of these things (snoonet for example) and after the volunteer staff walked out and sponsors moved their servers, this is effectively a new network with an old domain name and like he points out in that release, he has no intentions to keep things as they were.
Looking at the movement over the past day, it seems like we're the only hesitant party here. Rest of the communities have either moved to libera.chat or OFTC. I'd strongly advise us to do the same before things turn sour.
- jokke
On 2021-05-21 12:36:29 +0100 (+0100), Erno Kuvaja wrote: [...]
Looking at the movement over the past day, it seems like we're the only hesitant party here. Rest of the communities have either moved to libera.chat or OFTC. I'd strongly advise us to do the same before things turn sour.
OpenStack isn't the only community taking a careful and measured approach to the decision. Ansible deferred deciding what to do about their IRC channels until Wednesday of this coming week:
https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19
On 2021-05-21 14:14:30 +0000 (+0000), Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-21 12:36:29 +0100 (+0100), Erno Kuvaja wrote: [...]
Looking at the movement over the past day, it seems like we're the only hesitant party here. Rest of the communities have either moved to libera.chat or OFTC. I'd strongly advise us to do the same before things turn sour.
OpenStack isn't the only community taking a careful and measured approach to the decision. Ansible deferred deciding what to do about their IRC channels until Wednesday of this coming week:
https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19
In a similar vein, I've noticed that #python, #python-dev, #pypa and so on haven't moved off Freenode yet, though the topic in #python suggests there's some ongoing discussion to determine whether they should. Unfortunately it doesn't say where that's being discussed though, maybe on the Python community mailing lists or Discourse, however cursory searches I've performed turn up nothing.
On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 7:09 AM Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-21 14:14:30 +0000 (+0000), Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-21 12:36:29 +0100 (+0100), Erno Kuvaja wrote: [...]
Looking at the movement over the past day, it seems like we're the only hesitant party here. Rest of the communities have either moved to libera.chat or OFTC. I'd strongly advise us to do the same before things turn sour.
OpenStack isn't the only community taking a careful and measured approach to the decision. Ansible deferred deciding what to do about their IRC channels until Wednesday of this coming week:
https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19In a similar vein, I've noticed that #python, #python-dev, #pypa and so on haven't moved off Freenode yet, though the topic in #python suggests there's some ongoing discussion to determine whether they should. Unfortunately it doesn't say where that's being discussed though, maybe on the Python community mailing lists or Discourse, however cursory searches I've performed turn up nothing. -- Jeremy Stanley
I suspect they, like everyone else who has seen some of the latest rules changes[0] and a report[1] of abuses of power, are looking at treading lightly in order to do the best thing for their community. I suspect we're going to see a mass migration to other platforms or tools, regardless at this point in time. The rules changes are just going to make it more difficult to keep the existing channels as redirects.
I firmly believe this is no longer a matter of should, but we now have an imperative to ensure community communication continuity. If the higher level project doesn't wish to come to quick consensus, then I believe individual projects will make their own decisions and we'll end up fragmenting the communication channels until things settle down.
[0]: https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/pull/513/commits/2037126831a84c57f978268... [1]: https://www.devever.net/~hl/freenode_abuse
I looked over libera chat's tweet stream ( https://twitter.com/liberachat/with_replies), from the retweets there seems to be a clear pattern of groups who dislike what's happening over at freenode jumping predominantly to libera. Perhaps that's the right thing for openstack too (I had previously said let's go to OFTC since Jeremy has done some prep work), but let's go somewhere other than fn stat
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 9:29 AM Julia Kreger juliaashleykreger@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 7:09 AM Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-21 14:14:30 +0000 (+0000), Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-21 12:36:29 +0100 (+0100), Erno Kuvaja wrote: [...]
Looking at the movement over the past day, it seems like we're the only hesitant party here. Rest of the communities have either moved to libera.chat or OFTC. I'd strongly advise us to do the same before things turn sour.
OpenStack isn't the only community taking a careful and measured approach to the decision. Ansible deferred deciding what to do about their IRC channels until Wednesday of this coming week:
https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19In a similar vein, I've noticed that #python, #python-dev, #pypa and so on haven't moved off Freenode yet, though the topic in #python suggests there's some ongoing discussion to determine whether they should. Unfortunately it doesn't say where that's being discussed though, maybe on the Python community mailing lists or Discourse, however cursory searches I've performed turn up nothing. -- Jeremy Stanley
I suspect they, like everyone else who has seen some of the latest rules changes[0] and a report[1] of abuses of power, are looking at treading lightly in order to do the best thing for their community. I suspect we're going to see a mass migration to other platforms or tools, regardless at this point in time. The rules changes are just going to make it more difficult to keep the existing channels as redirects.
I firmly believe this is no longer a matter of should, but we now have an imperative to ensure community communication continuity. If the higher level project doesn't wish to come to quick consensus, then I believe individual projects will make their own decisions and we'll end up fragmenting the communication channels until things settle down.
It's worth highlighting that OFTC doesn't support SASL, and also many major FOSS projects have bet the farm on Libera. Do we want to be OFTC just because, or do we want to go where all the major projects have gone?
David
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 11:47 AM Chris Morgan mihalis68@gmail.com wrote:
I looked over libera chat's tweet stream ( https://twitter.com/liberachat/with_replies), from the retweets there seems to be a clear pattern of groups who dislike what's happening over at freenode jumping predominantly to libera. Perhaps that's the right thing for openstack too (I had previously said let's go to OFTC since Jeremy has done some prep work), but let's go somewhere other than fn stat
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 9:29 AM Julia Kreger juliaashleykreger@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 7:09 AM Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-21 14:14:30 +0000 (+0000), Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-21 12:36:29 +0100 (+0100), Erno Kuvaja wrote: [...]
Looking at the movement over the past day, it seems like we're the only hesitant party here. Rest of the communities have either moved to libera.chat or OFTC. I'd strongly advise us to do the same before things turn sour.
OpenStack isn't the only community taking a careful and measured approach to the decision. Ansible deferred deciding what to do about their IRC channels until Wednesday of this coming week:
https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19In a similar vein, I've noticed that #python, #python-dev, #pypa and so on haven't moved off Freenode yet, though the topic in #python suggests there's some ongoing discussion to determine whether they should. Unfortunately it doesn't say where that's being discussed though, maybe on the Python community mailing lists or Discourse, however cursory searches I've performed turn up nothing. -- Jeremy Stanley
I suspect they, like everyone else who has seen some of the latest rules changes[0] and a report[1] of abuses of power, are looking at treading lightly in order to do the best thing for their community. I suspect we're going to see a mass migration to other platforms or tools, regardless at this point in time. The rules changes are just going to make it more difficult to keep the existing channels as redirects.
I firmly believe this is no longer a matter of should, but we now have an imperative to ensure community communication continuity. If the higher level project doesn't wish to come to quick consensus, then I believe individual projects will make their own decisions and we'll end up fragmenting the communication channels until things settle down.
-- Chris Morgan mihalis68@gmail.com
On 2021-05-26 11:57:10 -0400 (-0400), David Peacock wrote:
It's worth highlighting that OFTC doesn't support SASL, and also many major FOSS projects have bet the farm on Libera. Do we want to be OFTC just because, or do we want to go where all the major projects have gone?
"All" is a stretch, there were plenty of free/libre open source projects on OFTC long before this latest episode of Freenode drama. Also OFTC isn't being suggested "just because." We've been making provisions to relocate our services to OFTC for over 7 years in case something ever happened to sufficiently offset the pain of moving (getting people to update their client configs, editing all our contributor docs...), with general acknowledgement from the community that it would have been a better choice for us from the beginning had we actively selected a network.
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 12:00 PM David Peacock dpeacock@redhat.com wrote:
It's worth highlighting that OFTC doesn't support SASL, and also many major FOSS projects have bet the farm on Libera. Do we want to be OFTC just because, or do we want to go where all the major projects have gone?
David
Correct me if I am wrong but from https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/openstack-irc the conscensus was to use OFTC
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 11:47 AM Chris Morgan mihalis68@gmail.com wrote:
I looked over libera chat's tweet stream (https://twitter.com/liberachat/with_replies), from the retweets there seems to be a clear pattern of groups who dislike what's happening over at freenode jumping predominantly to libera. Perhaps that's the right thing for openstack too (I had previously said let's go to OFTC since Jeremy has done some prep work), but let's go somewhere other than fn stat
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 9:29 AM Julia Kreger juliaashleykreger@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 7:09 AM Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-21 14:14:30 +0000 (+0000), Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-21 12:36:29 +0100 (+0100), Erno Kuvaja wrote: [...]
Looking at the movement over the past day, it seems like we're the only hesitant party here. Rest of the communities have either moved to libera.chat or OFTC. I'd strongly advise us to do the same before things turn sour.
OpenStack isn't the only community taking a careful and measured approach to the decision. Ansible deferred deciding what to do about their IRC channels until Wednesday of this coming week:
https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19In a similar vein, I've noticed that #python, #python-dev, #pypa and so on haven't moved off Freenode yet, though the topic in #python suggests there's some ongoing discussion to determine whether they should. Unfortunately it doesn't say where that's being discussed though, maybe on the Python community mailing lists or Discourse, however cursory searches I've performed turn up nothing. -- Jeremy Stanley
I suspect they, like everyone else who has seen some of the latest rules changes[0] and a report[1] of abuses of power, are looking at treading lightly in order to do the best thing for their community. I suspect we're going to see a mass migration to other platforms or tools, regardless at this point in time. The rules changes are just going to make it more difficult to keep the existing channels as redirects.
I firmly believe this is no longer a matter of should, but we now have an imperative to ensure community communication continuity. If the higher level project doesn't wish to come to quick consensus, then I believe individual projects will make their own decisions and we'll end up fragmenting the communication channels until things settle down.
-- Chris Morgan mihalis68@gmail.com
On Wed, 2021-05-26 at 12:09 -0400, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 12:00 PM David Peacock dpeacock@redhat.com wrote:
It's worth highlighting that OFTC doesn't support SASL, and also many major FOSS projects have bet the farm on Libera. Do we want to be OFTC just because, or do we want to go where all the major projects have gone?
David
Correct me if I am wrong but fromhttps://etherpad.opendev.org/p/openstack-irc the conscensus was to use OFTC
yes form the meeting we had it was and one of the action items form that meeting was to send out an email to the list to update everyone that is currently being worked on i belive
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 11:47 AM Chris Morgan mihalis68@gmail.com wrote:
I looked over libera chat's tweet stream (https://twitter.com/liberachat/with_replies), from the retweets there seems to be a clear pattern of groups who dislike what's happening over at freenode jumping predominantly to libera. Perhaps that's the right thing for openstack too (I had previously said let's go to OFTC since Jeremy has done some prep work), but let's go somewhere other than fn stat
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 9:29 AM Julia Kreger juliaashleykreger@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 7:09 AM Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org wrote:
On 2021-05-21 14:14:30 +0000 (+0000), Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-21 12:36:29 +0100 (+0100), Erno Kuvaja wrote: [...] > Looking at the movement over the past day, it seems like we're the > only hesitant party here. Rest of the communities have either > moved to libera.chat or OFTC. I'd strongly advise us to do the > same before things turn sour.
OpenStack isn't the only community taking a careful and measured approach to the decision. Ansible deferred deciding what to do about their IRC channels until Wednesday of this coming week:
https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19In a similar vein, I've noticed that #python, #python-dev, #pypa and so on haven't moved off Freenode yet, though the topic in #python suggests there's some ongoing discussion to determine whether they should. Unfortunately it doesn't say where that's being discussed though, maybe on the Python community mailing lists or Discourse, however cursory searches I've performed turn up nothing. -- Jeremy Stanley
I suspect they, like everyone else who has seen some of the latest rules changes[0] and a report[1] of abuses of power, are looking at treading lightly in order to do the best thing for their community. I suspect we're going to see a mass migration to other platforms or tools, regardless at this point in time. The rules changes are just going to make it more difficult to keep the existing channels as redirects.
I firmly believe this is no longer a matter of should, but we now have an imperative to ensure community communication continuity. If the higher level project doesn't wish to come to quick consensus, then I believe individual projects will make their own decisions and we'll end up fragmenting the communication channels until things settle down.
-- Chris Morgan mihalis68@gmail.com
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 08:21:14AM -0400, Mohammed Naser wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:23 AM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
[...]
There is two sides to each story, this is the other one:
There may be two sides; but in this specific case, the said person's erratic behaviour is clearly and utterly unreliable.
I recommend that so long that we don't have any problems, we keep things as is.
I doubt if it's sensible to "keep things as-is". I think we should go with the low-friction options (the Infra team is small and are already overloaded) that were already discussed:
(a) move to Libera.Chat (this also shows solidarity with the former Freenode staff, now at Libera, who were doing a lot of unthankful, but important work); or
(b) move to OFTC network
Obviously, there's no rush to implement this. And with *either* of these options, if there's time and energy, also have the Matrix bridge available to accomodate those who don't prefer IRC. But this is a really-nice-to-have. (And let's not forget: _if_ we do move, there's other grunt work like updating all public documentation, clear communication, etc.)
* * *
For comparison, this is Fedora's on-going proposal: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/372 https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/371
пт, 21 мая 2021 г. в 15:16, Kashyap Chamarthy kchamart@redhat.com:
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 08:21:14AM -0400, Mohammed Naser wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:23 AM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
[...]
There is two sides to each story, this is the other one:
There may be two sides; but in this specific case, the said person's erratic behaviour is clearly and utterly unreliable.
I recommend that so long that we don't have any problems, we keep things as is.
I doubt if it's sensible to "keep things as-is". I think we should go with the low-friction options (the Infra team is small and are already overloaded) that were already discussed:
(a) move to Libera.Chat (this also shows solidarity with the former Freenode staff, now at Libera, who were doing a lot of unthankful, but important work); or
(b) move to OFTC network
Obviously, there's no rush to implement this. And with *either* of these options, if there's time and energy, also have the Matrix bridge available to accomodate those who don't prefer IRC.
who don't prefer IRC
Why everyone points to third-party solutions for those who don't like IRC? Why the modern chat-platform can be used as a main solution and those who want IRC should look for third-party bridges to make it work in the good old way?
My small experience: Long time ago (4 years ago?!), I moved Rally community from IRC to Gitter. I don't regret it. There was a bot for synchronizing messages between Gitter and IRC, so no one was offended or ignored. Gitter (as like many modern chat-platforms that are mentioned in this thread) provides web, mobile and native clients. You just install or open browser tab it and it works. No need to think about installing bouncer, configuring IRC client to do not send disconnect signal to bouncer, and so on. From the beginning, most newcomers & users that don't care much about openstack community workflows started writing at Gitter, because it was much simpler (several clicks and you can ask for help) and the trend persisted.
I'm not saying that we need to use Gitter, it is going to die at some point, but I would like to raise one more time an idea that IRC is a good technology(as like ADSL) that will be alive for long long years, but there are a lot of interesting powerful solutions (i.e fiber networks).
But this is a
really-nice-to-have. (And let's not forget: _if_ we do move, there's other grunt work like updating all public documentation, clear communication, etc.)
* * *For comparison, this is Fedora's on-going proposal: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/372 https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/371
-- /kashyap
On Friday, 21 May 2021 15:30:40 CEST Andrey Kurilin wrote:
пт, 21 мая 2021 г. в 15:16, Kashyap Chamarthy kchamart@redhat.com:
who don't prefer IRC
Why everyone points to third-party solutions for those who don't like IRC? Why the modern chat-platform can be used as a main solution and those who want IRC should look for third-party bridges to make it work in the good old way?
On the technical side, as pointed out by several people, this could be done with matrix.org and its bridges, without having to leave IRC behind.
My small experience: Long time ago (4 years ago?!), I moved Rally community from IRC to Gitter. I don't regret it. There was a bot for synchronizing messages between Gitter and IRC, so no one was offended or ignored. Gitter (as like many modern chat-platforms that are mentioned in this thread) provides web, mobile and native clients. You just install or open browser tab it and it works. No need to think about installing bouncer, configuring IRC client to do not send disconnect signal to bouncer, and so on. From the beginning, most newcomers & users that don't care much about openstack community workflows started writing at Gitter, because it was much simpler (several clicks and you can ask for help) and the trend persisted.
I'm not saying that we need to use Gitter, it is going to die at some point, but I would like to raise one more time an idea that IRC is a good technology(as like ADSL) that will be alive for long long years, but there are a lot of interesting powerful solutions (i.e fiber networks).
You may know already, but gitter is now based on matrix.org: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/12/07/gitter-now-speaks-matrix
пт, 21 мая 2021 г. в 16:47, Luigi Toscano ltoscano@redhat.com:
On Friday, 21 May 2021 15:30:40 CEST Andrey Kurilin wrote:
пт, 21 мая 2021 г. в 15:16, Kashyap Chamarthy kchamart@redhat.com:
who don't prefer IRC
Why everyone points to third-party solutions for those who don't like
IRC?
Why the modern chat-platform can be used as a main solution and those who want IRC should look for third-party bridges to make it work in the good old way?
On the technical side, as pointed out by several people, this could be done with matrix.org and its bridges, without having to leave IRC behind.
Yes, but as far as I understand most speakers suggest using matrix to workaround missing features of IRC, but not to make a new chat-platform to be used with IRC clients.
My small experience: Long time ago (4 years ago?!), I moved Rally community from IRC to
Gitter. I
don't regret it. There was a bot for synchronizing messages between
Gitter
and IRC, so no one was offended or ignored. Gitter (as like many modern chat-platforms that are mentioned in this thread) provides web, mobile
and
native clients. You just install or open browser tab it and it works. No need to think about installing bouncer, configuring IRC client to do not send disconnect signal to bouncer, and so on. From the beginning, most newcomers & users that don't care much about openstack community
workflows
started writing at Gitter, because it was much simpler (several clicks
and
you can ask for help) and the trend persisted.
I'm not saying that we need to use Gitter, it is going to die at some point, but I would like to raise one more time an idea that IRC is a good technology(as like ADSL) that will be alive for long long years, but there are a lot of interesting powerful solutions (i.e fiber networks).
You may know already, but gitter is now based on matrix.org: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/12/07/gitter-now-speaks-matrix
That is why I mentioned that I do not suggest Gitter and it is going to die at some point. ;)
-- Luigi
On 2021-05-21 16:30:40 +0300 (+0300), Andrey Kurilin wrote: [...]
Why everyone points to third-party solutions for those who don't like IRC? Why the modern chat-platform can be used as a main solution and those who want IRC should look for third-party bridges to make it work in the good old way?
[...]
It's all a matter of perspective, and you're paying attention to how it's phrased by people who are already using IRC (the bulk of our current community). You could just as easily phrase it as "some projects are moving to Matrix, but taking advantage of the available Matrix/IRC bridge so that users of the old IRC channels aren't left behind." Technically the solution is the same one as "let's recommend a Matrix/IRC bridge to anyone who wants to talk with people on IRC without using IRC." The main difference is in how it's documented and communicated.
пт, 21 мая 2021 г. в 17:17, Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org:
On 2021-05-21 16:30:40 +0300 (+0300), Andrey Kurilin wrote: [...]
Why everyone points to third-party solutions for those who don't like IRC? Why the modern chat-platform can be used as a main solution and those who want IRC should look for third-party bridges to make it work in the good old way?
[...]
It's all a matter of perspective, and you're paying attention to how it's phrased by people who are already using IRC (the bulk of our current community). You could just as easily phrase it as "some projects are moving to Matrix, but taking advantage of the available Matrix/IRC bridge so that users of the old IRC channels aren't left behind." Technically the solution is the same one as "let's recommend a Matrix/IRC bridge to anyone who wants to talk with people on IRC without using IRC." The main difference is in how it's documented and communicated. -- Jeremy Stanley
It's all a matter of perspective
It is True without context. I may be wrong, but I do not remember any big change in OpenStack community (maybe only the 4 opens and nova-net -> neutron, but it's earlier days). If something was used/developed/decided 10 years ago, we will live with that forever. That is why I read all suggestions of using matrix as "if you don't like the chosen way, we are very sorry, but please find a way to leave with it. this is the way." :)
On Fri, May 21, 2021, at 7:28 AM, Andrey Kurilin wrote:
пт, 21 мая 2021 г. в 17:17, Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org:
On 2021-05-21 16:30:40 +0300 (+0300), Andrey Kurilin wrote: [...]
Why everyone points to third-party solutions for those who don't like IRC? Why the modern chat-platform can be used as a main solution and those who want IRC should look for third-party bridges to make it work in the good old way?
[...]
It's all a matter of perspective, and you're paying attention to how it's phrased by people who are already using IRC (the bulk of our current community). You could just as easily phrase it as "some projects are moving to Matrix, but taking advantage of the available Matrix/IRC bridge so that users of the old IRC channels aren't left behind." Technically the solution is the same one as "let's recommend a Matrix/IRC bridge to anyone who wants to talk with people on IRC without using IRC." The main difference is in how it's documented and communicated. -- Jeremy Stanley
It's all a matter of perspective
It is True without context. I may be wrong, but I do not remember any big change in OpenStack community (maybe only the 4 opens and nova-net -> neutron, but it's earlier days). If something was used/developed/decided 10 years ago, we will live with that forever.
I feel like a big part of this is lots of people have very grand ideas, but no time and willingness to invest in them. We have done a number of large changes since nova-net -> neutron including an entire Zuul v3 rewrite, the massive Gerrit upgrade last year, deployment and use of global-requirements and later constraints and their later modifications, fully automated most details of the OpenStack release process, and so on. I am sure there are many more, but I've got a bias due to the things I'm exposed to.
A key detail with all of those is they found champions who worked through them, got necessary consensus and implemented the changes.
That is why I read all suggestions of using matrix as "if you don't like the chosen way, we are very sorry, but please find a way to leave with it. this is the way." :)
I would characterize it more as "if you don't like the chosen way and have no willingness to help change things then it is unlikely that anything will change". From my (again biased) perspective it seems more and more that when people show up with ideas there is an assumption that someone else (often me) will simply whip something together for them and when that doesn't happen it is because the idea is rejected upfront rather than needing investment.
Matrix as an IRC alternative has been brought up a number of times in the past, but it has always lacked someone or a group of someones that are able to PoC it, determine what would be necessary to switch, make the necessary changes, then guide the project through a transition if the decision is made to move. This isn't as simple as registering on the service and joining channels either. You'll need ops/moderators, channel management, updates to existing bots that people want to keep, privacy policies may need to be considered, etc. The suggestion to use the matrix IRC bridge is a good way to simplify all of this though.
For this reason I think it would be useful to shift the conversation back to whether or not Freenode is viable going forward. If the consensus for that is "yes" then we start a completely separate conversation on whether or not we want to move to an alternative protocol and take our time. If the answer is "no" then it is probably best to make an "easy" move using consistent tooling for now, then start a conversation on whether or not a move to another set of tools longer term makes sense separately.
But again all of these options require effort and effort requires humans. Let's try to address the immediate problem first without conflating issues which only causes confusion and will make it more difficult to solve the problem in front of us. Then once that is behind us, bring up the other discussions in a productive manner (this includes acknowledging the other side might have an opinion worth listening to and that the other side doesn't make choices simply because they have grown long beards).
Note: I've addressed some of the other ideas in the larger thread in this response, but they aren't necessarily the views of those I am directly responding to.
-- Best regards, Andrey Kurilin.
пт, 21 мая 2021 г. в 18:48, Clark Boylan cboylan@sapwetik.org:
On Fri, May 21, 2021, at 7:28 AM, Andrey Kurilin wrote:
пт, 21 мая 2021 г. в 17:17, Jeremy Stanley fungi@yuggoth.org:
On 2021-05-21 16:30:40 +0300 (+0300), Andrey Kurilin wrote: [...]
Why everyone points to third-party solutions for those who don't like IRC? Why the modern chat-platform can be used as a main solution and those who want IRC should look for third-party bridges to make it work in the good old way?
[...]
It's all a matter of perspective, and you're paying attention to how it's phrased by people who are already using IRC (the bulk of our current community). You could just as easily phrase it as "some projects are moving to Matrix, but taking advantage of the available Matrix/IRC bridge so that users of the old IRC channels aren't left behind." Technically the solution is the same one as "let's recommend a Matrix/IRC bridge to anyone who wants to talk with people on IRC without using IRC." The main difference is in how it's documented and communicated. -- Jeremy Stanley
It's all a matter of perspective
It is True without context. I may be wrong, but I do not remember any big change in OpenStack community (maybe only the 4 opens and nova-net -> neutron, but it's earlier days). If something was used/developed/decided 10 years ago, we will live with that forever.
I feel like a big part of this is lots of people have very grand ideas, but no time and willingness to invest in them. We have done a number of large changes since nova-net -> neutron including an entire Zuul v3 rewrite,
yes, Zuul is another thing that occurred to me as soon as I sent an email, but it was late to change anything.
the massive Gerrit upgrade last year, deployment and use of global-requirements and later constraints and their later modifications, fully automated most details of the OpenStack release process, and so on. I am sure there are many more, but I've got a bias due to the things I'm exposed to.
Most of the listed things are just required things to do. It doesn't simplify them or decreases greatness.
A key detail with all of those is they found champions who worked through them, got necessary consensus and implemented the changes.
Sure thing. I do not want to hurt anyone, I know that there are a lot of people in our community that implemented a bunch of great, necessary and important tasks. And thanks to everyone for that.
The problem is in the over-complexity of doing such changes.
That is why I read all suggestions of using matrix as "if you don't like the chosen way, we are very sorry, but please find a way to leave with it. this is the way." :)
I would characterize it more as "if you don't like the chosen way and have no willingness to help change things then it is unlikely that anything will change". From my (again biased) perspective it seems more and more that when people show up with ideas there is an assumption that someone else (often me) will simply whip something together for them and when that doesn't happen it is because the idea is rejected upfront rather than needing investment.
I understand what you are talking about, but only one or two emails mentioned the complexity of implementation and load of infra-team. Most emails of the topic cover only theoretical point of view "whether we want one or another solution".
Matrix as an IRC alternative has been brought up a number of times in the past, but it has always lacked someone or a group of someones that are able to PoC it, determine what would be necessary to switch, make the necessary changes, then guide the project through a transition if the decision is made to move. This isn't as simple as registering on the service and joining channels either. You'll need ops/moderators, channel management, updates to existing bots that people want to keep, privacy policies may need to be considered, etc. The suggestion to use the matrix IRC bridge is a good way to simplify all of this though.
For this reason I think it would be useful to shift the conversation back to whether or not Freenode is viable going forward. If the consensus for that is "yes" then we start a completely separate conversation on whether or not we want to move to an alternative protocol and take our time. If the answer is "no" then it is probably best to make an "easy" move using consistent tooling for now, then start a conversation on whether or not a move to another set of tools longer term makes sense separately.
I dislike questions with binary answers. Such questions are too limited. For example, if you ask me for a binary answer for the topic - I would just ignore answering because I use IRC rarely and only for openstack purpose. Should we move from Freenode to another IRC network? I don't care much, that is my answer...
But again all of these options require effort and effort requires humans.
Let's try to address the immediate problem first without conflating issues which only causes confusion and will make it more difficult to solve the problem in front of us. Then once that is behind us, bring up the other discussions in a productive manner (this includes acknowledging the other side might have an opinion worth listening to and that the other side doesn't make choices simply because they have grown long beards).
Note: I've addressed some of the other ideas in the larger thread in this response, but they aren't necessarily the views of those I am directly responding to.
-- Best regards, Andrey Kurilin.
I agree that openstack chat should get off freenode. I don't claim to understand what happened there, but clearly Mr Lee is attempting to appear like the "owner" of IRC in general (see https://www.irc.com/lets-take-irc-further) something I find repellant. I'm not qualified to comment on libera chat vs. oftc, except that Jeremy has already prepared technically for a possible move to OFTC and established with the community that it was a suitable replacement. On that basis it seems like the best next step to me +1
[I found getting into IRC hard myself - it's resolutely banned where I work, but IRCcloud is good enough. I'm by no means an IRC old-timer.]
Chris
Considering how the freenode takeover was done, I don't believe the statuquo is a viable option here. This is below the belt and I don't think they deserve our userbase. Maybe this is a grayzone and this is borderline legal, as a FOSS community, we have the responsibility to take a stance against this kind of behavior by dropping our support to the new freenode.That's the least we can do.
I understand that moving away from current freenode to either libera, or whatever other medium the community will choose is going to be a hassle to everyone. We're going to waste quite a lot of time to move everything and transition. It shouldn't be rushed if we want to change medium. We need to evaluate options, maybe we should vote, and/or deploy stable infrastructure if necessary.
I still believe that moving to libera should be quite trivial for most of us and should probably be done ASAP and from there we can decide where we want to go next.
DVD
On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 1:55 PM Chris Morgan mihalis68@gmail.com wrote:
I agree that openstack chat should get off freenode. I don't claim to understand what happened there, but clearly Mr Lee is attempting to appear like the "owner" of IRC in general (see https://www.irc.com/lets-take-irc-further) something I find repellant. I'm not qualified to comment on libera chat vs. oftc, except that Jeremy has already prepared technically for a possible move to OFTC and established with the community that it was a suitable replacement. On that basis it seems like the best next step to me +1
[I found getting into IRC hard myself - it's resolutely banned where I work, but IRCcloud is good enough. I'm by no means an IRC old-timer.]
Chris
-- Chris Morgan mihalis68@gmail.com
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:23 AM Erno Kuvaja ekuvaja@redhat.com wrote:
Hi all,
For those of you who have not woken up to this sad day yet. Andrew Lee has taken his stance as owner of freenode ltd. and by the (one sided) story of the former volunteer staff members basically forced the whole community out.
As there is history of LTM shutting down networks before (snoonet), it is appropriate to expect that the intentions here are not aligned with the communities and specially the users who's data he has access to via this administrative takeover.
I think it's our time to take swift action and show our support to all the hard working volunteers who were behind freenode and move all our activities to irc.libera.chat.
Please see https://twitter.com/freenodestaff and Christian's letter which links to the others as well https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
Best, Erno 'jokke' Kuvaja
I'd like to invite those who feel very strongly about this subject to add it to the OpenStack technical committee meeting agenda and bring it up to discussion.
https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee
Given the next meeting is in 5 minutes, it might be a little late for this week, but good to push for next weeks. Thank you.
participants (27)
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Andrey Kurilin
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Artem Goncharov
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Braden, Albert
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Chris Morgan
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Clark Boylan
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Dan Smith
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David Peacock
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David Vallee Delisle
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Dmitry Tantsur
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Erno Kuvaja
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Ghanshyam Mann
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James LaBarre
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Jay Bryant
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Jay Faulkner
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Jeremy Stanley
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Jiri Podivin
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Julia Kreger
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Kashyap Chamarthy
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Luigi Toscano
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Mauricio Tavares
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Mohammed Naser
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Pete Zaitcev
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Sean Mooney
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Sylvain Bauza
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Thierry Carrez
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Thomas Goirand
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Zane Bitter