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On 11/15/2013 02:33 PM, Salvatore Orlando wrote:
> Apologies for forking the thread.
Not at all. You do want you need to do.
> I think this is probably the last post with some content which might 
> be useful for a discussion which does not involve fashion police.
I'm all for content for useful discussion.
>
> On another note, I've seen my name is in the list of the required 
> attendees. To be fair and honest I'm not any more required than any 
> other member of the neutron core team.
When I asked Mark McClain who needed to be there, he told me yourself, 
Sean Dague and Matt Trenish. I was going on the best information I had 
at the time. I also had to select a time and location with the 4 of you 
in two different rooms in less than 2 hours.

I hope all the Neutron cores attend. I also agree with the sentiment. I 
picture a circle, every contributor an equal distance from the same focus.
>
> I've also added some comments inline.
>
> On 15 November 2013 17:16, Anita Kuno <anteaya at anteaya.info 
> <mailto:anteaya at anteaya.info>> wrote:
>
>     On 11/15/2013 11:01 AM, Kyle Mestery (kmestery) wrote:
>
>         On Nov 15, 2013, at 9:36 AM, Russell Bryant
>         <rbryant at redhat.com <mailto:rbryant at redhat.com>> wrote:
>
>             On 11/13/2013 11:10 AM, Anita Kuno wrote:
>
>                 Neutron Tempest code sprint
>
>                 In the second week of January in Montreal, Quebec,
>                 Canadathere will be a
>                 Neutron Tempest code sprint to improve the status of
>                 Neutron tests in
>                 Tempest and to add new tests.
>
>             First off, I think anything regarding putting more effort
>             into this is
>             great.  However, I *beg* the Neutron team not to wait
>             until this week to
>             make significant progress.
>
>     Well I have an item on the Neutron team meeting for next week:
>     https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings#Neutron_Tempest_.28anteaya.29
>     I would enjoy having your presence there and hope you join in on
>     the discussion, Russell.
>
>
> This is completely true, and I expect that the ideal goal would be 
> that by the day that the sprint comes, parallel testing with tenant 
> isolation and coverage gaps are covered.
Do we have any blueprints or etherpads giving some guidance on 
implementing this expectation?
I do like the phrase "parallel testing", music to my ears.
> Regarding specifically the sprint, I reckon it is an event with lot of 
> potential for building a community and solving actual problems, but 
> allow me to say that, from my little experience, developer 
> productivity often don't add up. By this I mean that if you put 10 
> developers in a room, and each of them has a productivity of one, the 
> outcome is likely to be less than 10.
Do you feel there is a better way to meet the goals the sprint is 
designed to meet?
>
> I am sure that Neutron devs will work with Tempest devs, with the help 
> of Nova devs (we need that too as one of main pain points is the 
> neutronv2 implementation of nova's network api) to reach to a stage 
> where we are comfortable with gate stability and coverage by the 
> beginning of this Montreal sprint.
I do hope so. Part of what I hope comes out of this is a through 
understanding of what tempest is and how to write tempest tests, since 
there seems to be a need for some teaching on these points within 
neutron. If there is an expectation that the gate is stable and covered 
by the beginning of the sprint, perhaps we need to look at ensuring 
tempest information is disseminated through neutron prior to the sprint.
>
>
>
>             To be clear, IMO, this is already painfully late.  It's
>             one of the
>             largest items blocking deprecation of nova-network and
>             moving forward
>             with Neutron.  This spring is just a couple weeks before
>             icehouse-2.
>             Come i2, mid-cycle, we're going to have make a call on
>             whether or not
>             nova-network deprecation seems likely.  If not, we really
>             can't wait
>             around and I will probably propose un-freezing nova-network.
>
>
> As also stated during the design summit, this goes beyond parity, 
> stability, and migration. It is a question that should probably be 
> asked to users rather than developers, but is probably off-topic in 
> this thread.
I think we need to continue to discuss what we should work on at the 
code sprint and prior to it. If you and Russell have different opinions 
on what should be accomplished, I think now is the time to have that 
discussion.
>
>     Yes, the surprising thing for me is this is the feeling within the
>     rest of the OpenStack community and seems to be not acknowledged
>     in anyway so far in my journeys within Neutron. Thank you for
>     stating this so clearly, Russell. I hope people are able to hear
>     you when you say it.
>
>
> I personally do not feel this way; even if this is just my personal 
> opinion.
I am so very glad to hear that. And your personal opinion counts.
> We did a bad job in fixing test coverage during Havana; the PTL has 
> acknowledged it, and is taking the necessary steps to put things 
> right. I think there has been a good response from the community, in 
> terms of people willing to volunteer, and in terms of support for the 
> plan of requiring verifiability for all plugins.
I agree. The plan for 3rd party testing is clearly written with good 
goals and a plan for enforcement of same. I think it was very heartening 
to see that posted.
>
>
>     It was actually for this reason that I decided to do what I am
>     doing, to my best ability to do it. Others are prepared to
>     deprecate Neutron now and I needed to demonstrate to myself that I
>     did everything I could to address the situation before I voiced my
>     opinion.
>
>
>     So we shall see what comes of it.
>
>
>                 The event will be vendor neutral. We will talk to each
>                 other based on
>                 who we are and our interests, not based on who signs
>                 our paycheque. If
>                 folks arrive with logoed shirts (I don't know which
>                 logos are work logos
>                 and which aren't, so I will request no logos please) I
>                 will issue you a
>                 white T-shirt to wear. We need to work collaboratively
>                 to effectlvely
>                 make progress during the code sprint.
>
>             I'm all for promoting a culture of individuals and vendor
>             neutrality.
>             However, I think this requirement is bizarre and
>             unnecessary.  From a
>             practical standpoint, many people (myself included) get a
>             ton of shirts
>             at conferences, so a lot of my clothes have tech company
>             logos.  If you
>             actually get people to show up to an event dedicated to
>             working on
>             testing, who cares what shirt they have on?
>
>     Actually symbols are very important and carry subtle messages that
>     the unconcious part of the brain interprets but may not push to
>     conciousness.
>     http://uanews.org/story/ua-study-your-brain-sees-things-you-don-t
>
>     Logos are powerful for a reason, and when I talk to you, Russell,
>     I appreciate being able to look at you and hear you without a logo
>     creating interference with my communication with you.
>
>
>             "I will issue you a white T-shirt"?!  Are you serious?
>
>     Yes.
>
>
>                 Someone at the summit choose not to wear footwear at
>                 the event. If you
>                 want to come to the code sprint please plan on wearing
>                 appropriate
>                 footwear in the public areas at the code sprint. For
>                 two reasons:
>                 1. It will be cold.
>                 2. The event is meant to facilitate mutual respect
>                 between us to
>                 increase communication, both at the event and
>                 afterwards. I feel wearing
>                 appropriate footwear supports this goal.
>
>             It's Winter in Canada... I'd be quite surprised if someone
>             went without
>             shoes.
>
>     I was surprised someone showed up in public areas at the summit
>     without them.
>
>
>             I love the idea, but this stuff is just a big turn-off.
>
>     That is a shame. It would be wonderful if you could attend. But
>     you are the only one who can decide and I respect your opinion.
>
>         Huge +1 from me as well. The sprint and Tempest work is great, the
>         clothing requirements are going to make people not take this
>         seriously.
>         I feel these were not necessary.
>
>     I wish that were so. I have witnessed nothing in my time in the
>     Neutron design summit sessions or in the IRC channel to indicate
>     they aren't.
>
>     Funny this is such a big pain point.
>
>     Thanks for weighing in, I do hope to keep the conversation going.
>
>     Thanks,
>     Anita.
>
>
> Regards,
> Salvatore
>
> PS: Can I wear my favourite football club shirt?
Since we have agreed that we need to focus on what is good for the 
future of Neutron [0] and focusing on clothing is secondary to that, you 
can wear what you like.

Thanks Salvatore,
Anita.

[0] 
http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-November/019403.html
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