[all][foundation][ecosystem] External projects under the foundation hat

Jeremy Stanley fungi at yuggoth.org
Wed Jun 22 16:13:38 UTC 2022

On 2022-06-22 16:38:24 +0200 (+0200), Artem Goncharov wrote:
> For me the problem here is not whether GitHub is open source or
> not. Surely there are open source solutions, but that require
> company to actually run this hosting. You can try to to go opendev
> to do development there, but here you pay with gerrit.

OpenDev is not the only community-run code hosting service based on
open source software. There are quite a few others to choose from,
some of which are based on systems which employ a pull request or
merge request workflow. But yes, it's easier to not look for them
that's it's not a priority for you to begin with.

> My company gives me laptop (and actually there are valid reasons
> for running some form of Enterprise stuff there). I have honestly
> no freedom in what I use to run slide decks. I would really love
> to have a purely Linux laptop, but I can’t. However I do my best
> to use open source tools to create my slide decks.

But we do have some choice in who we work for. As someone who has
pressed my employers to use open source software since the 1990s,
and sometimes even defied them in order to avoid compromising my
ideals, I do get that it's not easy at times. For some, working on
open source software is "just a job" and not an integral part of
their life or ideology. That's perfectly okay. In fact, I still find
it pretty amazing that it's become so normalized for people to get
paid from working on open source projects to the extent that it can
be "just a job" rather than an ideology now.

> On the other side you mentioned gitea is lacking support for
> required piece and that is exactly the case where you eventually
> can’t chase open source anymore. We can try, but I doubt we are
> able to reimplement so many things in the purely open source
> style. I guess not even any car now runs with a purely open source
> firmware. Would you not use it because of that?

This feels like a defeatist attitude, and one that I thankfully
don't share. Yes the places where proprietary software still has
market share are many and can seem like daunting mountains to try to
scale. I take it as a challenge, prioritizing systems with open
source firmware, based on open design boards and open specification
chipsets for as many of my hardware purchases as possible. I get
involved in those communities, and I make sure anything I build is
made freely available under open community licenses. It's a lot of
effort, and it's not for everyone sure, but please don't be so quick
to dismiss the passions of others to solve this problem even if you
think it's futile.

> I know it is possible, but we didn’t proceed this way (most likely
> due to your statement in
> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2021-November/025663.html)

Nowhere in there did I tell you not to use GitHub and not to run
your own CI system. I explained that OpenDev doesn't gate GitHub
projects with the Zuul instance it runs, and the reasons why we
don't. It might be a reason for you not to use OpenDev, but it
shouldn't have a bearing on whether you make different choices for
the services you run for your community.

> Maybe right. Afaik (at least what I followed) the discussion got
> stuck on a statement that the folks must move to opendev to
> achieve that and they could not agree on that due to fear of
> loosing contributors). I have only
> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2021-November/025884.html
> as last message to refer to.

I think you're probably conflating "part of OpenStack" with legal
representation by the OpenInfra Foundation. OpenStack is an official
OpenInfra project, but it is not the only official OpenInfra
project. OpenStack does use OpenDev for its development practices at
present, but not all OpenInfra projects do so.

> My ultimate goal (“very close”) would be to have gophercloud on
> opendev and be a delivery of SDK team so that we can use same
> tooling and standards to test them.

The fact that OpenStack relies heavily on a Gerrit-based code review
process is part of those "tooling and standards." I'm still not
grasping how using something other than the services OpenDev
provides is still "on opendev" but it's likely you have a very
different definition for what that means than I do.

> If being located on opendev is not an option I would love to have
> it on ANY git hosting with opendev Zuul integration to still be
> able to use same tooling to test them.

As already mentioned, OpenDev's Zuul does already connect to public
GitHub in order to serve as a third-party CI and auxiliary build
service for projects which are dependencies of projects in OpenDev's
Gerrit. If OpenStackSDK wants to run tests which consume pull
requests for gophercloud and report back to GitHub with results,
that's quite easy to add. Where we draw the line is that we won't
consume Zuul configuration from projects which aren't hosted in our
Gerrit, and we won't gate projects hosted outside our Gerrit.

> If this ANY hosting is GitHub I would prefer to see it under
> OpenStack organisation from marketing perspective. Same would be
> valid for terraform provider for OpenStack, especially from
> marketing point of view, but I do not really know whether its
> maintainers are having an interest in that at all.

This is entirely up to the OpenStack TC, so I have no opinion on it
one way or the other. Part of the formation of the OpenDev
Collaboratory was removing the direct GitHub integration we were
running in service of OpenStack, and handing over control of that
organization to people in the OpenStack community who see some value
in having a presence on GitHub and were willing to maintain new
integration with it themselves.

> At the moment those 2 examples are affiliated with OpenStack, but
> they feel so much detached from OpenStack development, that it
> does not really look proper to me. Since we may talk generally
> about "OpenStack affiliated" products of course there might be
> some limitations.

Not following the same code review workflows as OpenStack makes them
feel very detached from OpenStack development. Simply moving them
into the openstack org on GitHub won't change that.

> I learned openlab got problems, so gopher and TF are not even able
> to run Zuul jobs anymore. So unless somebody offers Zuul they
> can’t even do proper gating.

While I can't guarantee they'll be willing, VEXXHOST runs managed
Zuul services for other open source communities, so might be willing
to entertain a request to do so for gophercloud and Terraform:


Similarly, Software Factory hosts a bunch of open source projects
and provides Zuul tenants for them:


Jeremy Stanley
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