[ironic] On redfish-virtual-media vs idrac-redfish-virtual-media
dtantsur at redhat.com
Thu Jan 28 16:03:17 UTC 2021
This is how the patch would look like:
It even passes redfish and idrac unit tests unmodified (modulo incorrect
mocking in test_boot).
On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 3:52 PM Dmitry Tantsur <dtantsur at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 7:04 AM Pioso, Richard <Richard.Pioso at dell.com>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 9:56 AM Dmitry Tantsur <dtantsur at redhat.com>
>> > Hi all,
>> > Now that we've gained some experience with using Redfish virtual
>> > media I'd like to reopen the discussion about $subj. For the context,
>> > idrac-redfish-virtual-media boot interface appeared because Dell
>> > machines need an additional action  to boot from virtual media. The
>> > initial position on hardware interfaces was that anything requiring OEM
>> > actions must go into a vendor hardware interface. I would like to
>> > relaxing this (likely unwritten) rule.
>> > You see, this distinction causes a lot of confusion. Ironic supports
>> > Redfish, ironic supports iDRAC, iDRAC supports Redfish, ironic supports
>> > virtual media, Redfish supports virtual media, iDRAC supports virtual
>> > media. BUT! You cannot use redfish-virtual-media with iDRAC. Just today
>> > I had to explain the cause of it to a few people. It required diving
>> > how exactly Redfish works and how exactly ironic uses it, which is
>> > something we want to protect our users from.
>> Wow! Now I’m confused, too. AFAIU, the people you had to help decided to
>> use the redfish driver, instead of the idrac driver. It is puzzling that
>> they decided to do that considering the ironic driver composition reform
>>  of a couple years ago. Recall that reform allows “having one vendor
>> driver with options configurable per node instead of many drivers for every
>> vendor” and had the following goals.
> When discussing the user's confusion we should not operate in terms of
> ironic (especially since the problem happened in metal3 land, which
> abstracts away ironic). As a user, when I see Redfish and virtual media,
> and I know that Dell supports them, I can expect redfish-virtual-media to
> work. The fact that it does not may cause serious perception problems. The
> one I'm particularly afraid of is end users thinking "iDRAC is not Redfish
>> “- Make vendors in charge of defining a set of supported interface
>> implementations in priority order.
>> - Allow vendors to guarantee that unsupported interface implementations
>> will not be used with hardware types they define. This is done by having a
>> hardware type list all interfaces it supports.”
>> The idrac driver is Dell Technologies’ vendor driver for systems with an
>> iDRAC. It offers a one-stop shop for using ironic to manage its systems.
>> Users can select among the hardware interfaces it supports. Each interface
>> uses a single management protocol -- Redfish, WS-Man, and soon IPMI  --
>> to communicate with the BMC. While it supports the
>> idrac-redfish-virtual-media boot interface, it does not support
>> redfish-virtual-media. One cannot configure a node with the idrac driver to
>> use redfish-virtual-media.
> I know, the problem is explaining to users why they can use the redfish
> hardware type with Dell machines, but only partly.
>> > We already have a precedent  of adding vendor-specific handling to
>> > a generic driver.
>> That change was introduced about a month ago in the community’s
>> vendor-independent ipmi driver. That was very understandable, since IPMI is
>> a very mature management protocol and was introduced over 22 years ago. I
>> cannot remember what I was doing back then :) As one would expect, the ipmi
>> driver has experienced very little change over the past two-plus years. I
>> count roughly two (2) substantive changes over that period. By contrast,
>> the Redfish protocol is just over five (5) years old. Its
>> vendor-independent driver, redfish, has been fertile ground for adding new,
>> advanced features, such as BIOS settings configuration, firmware update,
>> and RAID configuration, and fixing bugs. It fosters lots of change, too
>> many for me to count.
>> > I have proposed a patch  to block using redfish-
>> > virtual-media for Dell hardware, but I grew to dislike this approach. It
>> > does not have precedents in the ironic code base and it won't scale well
>> > if we have to handle vendor differences for vendors that don't have
>> > ironic drivers.
>> Dell understands and is on board with ironic’s desire that vendors
>> support the full functionality offered by the vendor-independent redfish
>> driver. If the iDRAC is broken with regards to redfish-virtual-media, then
>> we have a vested interest in fixing it.
>> While that is worked, an alternative approach could be for our community
>> to strengthen its promotion of the goals of the driver composition reform.
>> That would leverage ironic’s long-standing ability to ensure people only
>> use hardware interfaces which the vendor and its driver support.
> Yep. I don't necessarily disagree with that, but it poses issues for
> layered products like metal3, where on each abstraction level a small
> nuance is lost, and the end result is confusion and frustration.
>> > Based on all this I suggest relaxing the rule to the following: if a
>> > supported by a generic hardware interface requires additional actions or
>> > has a minor deviation from the standard, allow handling it in the
>> > hardware interface. Meaning, redfish-virtual-media starts handling the
>> > Dell case by checking the System manufacturer (via the recently added
>> > detect_vendor call) and loading the OEM code if it matches "Dell". After
>> > this idrac-redfish-virtual-media will stay empty (for future
>> > and to make the patch backportable).
>> That would cause the vendor-independent redfish driver to become
>> dependent on sushy-oem-idrac, which is not under ironic governance.
> This itself is not a problem, most of the projects we depend on are not
> under ironic governance.
> Also it won't be a hard dependency, only if we detect 'Dell' in
>> It is worth pointing out the sushy-oem-idrac library is necessary to get
>> virtual media to work with Dell systems. It was first created for that
>> purpose. It is not a workaround like those in sushy, which accommodate
>> common, minor standards interpretation and implementation differences
>> across vendors by sprinkling a bit of code here and there within the
>> library, unbeknownst to ironic proper.
>> We at Dell Technologies are concerned that the proposed rule change would
>> result in a greater code review load on the ironic community. Since
>> vendor-specific code would be in the generic hardware interface, much more
>> care, eyes, and integration testing against physical hardware would be
>> needed to ensure it does not break others. And our community is already
>> concerned about its limited available review bandwidth . Generally
>> speaking, the vendor third-party CIs do not cover all drivers. Rather, each
>> vendor only tests its own driver, and, in some cases, sushy. Therefore,
>> changes to the vendor-independent redfish driver may introduce regressions
>> in what has been working with various hardware and not be detected by
>> automated testing before being merged.
> The change will, in fact, be tested by your 3rd party CI because it was
> used by both the generic redfish hardware type and the idrac one.
> I guess a source of confusion may be this: I don't suggest the idrac
> hardware type goes away, nor do I suggest we start copying its
> Dell-specific features to redfish.
>> Can we afford this additional review load, prospective slowing down of
>> innovation with Redfish, and likely undetected regressions? Would that be
>> best for our users when we could fix the problem in other ways, such as the
>> one suggested above?
>> Also consider that feedback to the DMTF to drive vendor consistency is
>> critical, but the DMTF needs feedback on what is broken in order to push
>> others to address a problem. Remember the one-time boot debacle when three
>> vendors broke at the same time? Once folks went screaming to the DMTF about
>> the issue, it quickly explained it to member companies, clarified the
>> standard, and created a test case for that condition. Changing the driver
>> model to accommodate everyone's variations will reduce that communication
>> back to the DMTF, meaning the standard stalls and interoperability does not
>> gain traction.
> I would welcome somebody raising to DMTF the issue that causes iDRAC to
> need another action to boot from virtual media, I suspect other vendors may
> have similar issues. That being said, our users are way too far away from
> DMTF, and even we (Julia and myself, for example) don't have a direct way
> of influencing it, only through you and other folks who help (thank you!).
>> > Thoughts?
>> TL;DR, we strongly recommend ironic not make this rule change. Clearly
>> communicating users should use the vendor driver should simplify their
>> experience and eliminate the confusion.
>> The code as-is is factored well as a result of the 21st century approach
>> the community has taken to date. Vendors can implement the driver OEM
>> changes they need to accommodate their unique hardware and BMC
>> requirements, with reduced concern about the risk of breaking other drivers
>> or ironic itself. Ironic’s driver composition reform, sushy, and sushy’s
>> OEM extension mechanism support that modern approach. Our goal is to
>> continue to improve the iDRAC Redfish service’s compliance with the
>> standard and eliminate the kind of OEM code Dmitry identified.
>> Beware of unintended consequences, including
>> - reduced quality,
>> - slowed feature and bug fix velocity,
> I don't see how this happens, given that the code is merely copied from
> one place to the other (with the 1st place inheriting it from its base
>> - stalled DMTF Redfish standard,
>> - lost Redfish interoperability traction, and
> I'm afraid we're actually hurting Redfish adoption when we start
> complicating its usage. Think, with IPMI everything "Just Works" (except
> when it does not, but that happens much later), while for Redfish the users
> need to be aware of... flavors of Redfish? Something that we (and DMTF)
> don't even have a name for.
>> - increased code review load.
>> > Dmitry
>> > 
>> > https://opendev.org/openstack/ironic/src/commit/6ea73bdfbb53486cf9
>> > 905d21024d16cbf5829b2c/ironic/drivers/modules/drac/boot.py#L130
>> >  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/757198/
>> >  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/771619
>> > --
>> > Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn,
>> > Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243,
>> > Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs,
>> > Michael O'Neill
>> I welcome your feedback.
>>  https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2008528
>>  https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/ironic-wallaby-midcycle
> Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn,
> Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243,
> Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael
Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn,
Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243,
Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael
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