[openstack-dev] [TripleO] containerized undercloud in Queens

Dan Prince dprince at redhat.com
Wed Oct 4 16:50:34 UTC 2017

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Dmitry Tantsur <dtantsur at redhat.com> wrote:

> (top-posting, as it is not a direct response to a specific line)
> This is your friendly reminder that we're not quite near containerized
> ironic-inspector. The THT for it has probably never been tested at all, and
> the iptables magic we do may simply not be containers-compatible. Milan
> would appreciate any help with his ironic-inspector rework.
Thanks Dmitry. Exactly the update I was looking for. Look forward to
syncing w/ Milan on this.


> Dmitry
> On 10/04/2017 03:00 PM, Dan Prince wrote:
>> On Tue, 2017-10-03 at 16:03 -0600, Alex Schultz wrote:
>>> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 2:46 PM, Dan Prince <dprince at redhat.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Alex Schultz <aschultz at redhat.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Dan Prince <dprince at redhat.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 2017-10-02 at 15:20 -0600, Alex Schultz wrote:
>>>>>>> Hey Dan,
>>>>>>> Thanks for sending out a note about this. I have a few
>>>>>>> questions
>>>>>>> inline.
>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 6:02 AM, Dan Prince <dprince at redhat.co
>>>>>>> m>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> One of the things the TripleO containers team is planning
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> tackling
>>>>>>>> in Queens is fully containerizing the undercloud. At the
>>>>>>>> PTG we
>>>>>>>> created
>>>>>>>> an etherpad [1] that contains a list of features that need
>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>> implemented to fully replace instack-undercloud.
>>>>>>> I know we talked about this at the PTG and I was skeptical
>>>>>>> that this
>>>>>>> will land in Queens. With the exception of the Container's
>>>>>>> team
>>>>>>> wanting this, I'm not sure there is an actual end user who is
>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>> for the feature so I want to make sure we're not just doing
>>>>>>> more work
>>>>>>> because we as developers think it's a good idea.
>>>>>> I've heard from several operators that they were actually
>>>>>> surprised we
>>>>>> implemented containers in the Overcloud first. Validating a new
>>>>>> deployment framework on a single node Undercloud (for
>>>>>> operators) before
>>>>>> overtaking their entire cloud deployment has a lot of merit to
>>>>>> it IMO.
>>>>>> When you share the same deployment architecture across the
>>>>>> overcloud/undercloud it puts us in a better position to decide
>>>>>> where to
>>>>>> expose new features to operators first (when creating the
>>>>>> undercloud or
>>>>>> overcloud for example).
>>>>>> Also, if you read my email again I've explicitly listed the
>>>>>> "Containers" benefit last. While I think moving the undercloud
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> containers is a great benefit all by itself this is more of a
>>>>>> "framework alignment" in TripleO and gets us out of maintaining
>>>>>> huge
>>>>>> amounts of technical debt. Re-using the same framework for the
>>>>>> undercloud and overcloud has a lot of merit. It effectively
>>>>>> streamlines
>>>>>> the development process for service developers, and 3rd parties
>>>>>> wishing
>>>>>> to integrate some of their components on a single node. Why be
>>>>>> forced
>>>>>> to create a multi-node dev environment if you don't have to
>>>>>> (aren't
>>>>>> using HA for example).
>>>>>> Lets be honest. While instack-undercloud helped solve the old
>>>>>> "seed" VM
>>>>>> issue it was outdated the day it landed upstream. The entire
>>>>>> premise of
>>>>>> the tool is that it uses old style "elements" to create the
>>>>>> undercloud
>>>>>> and we moved away from those as the primary means driving the
>>>>>> creation
>>>>>> of the Overcloud years ago at this point. The new
>>>>>> 'undercloud_deploy'
>>>>>> installer gets us back to our roots by once again sharing the
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> architecture to create the over and underclouds. A demo from
>>>>>> long ago
>>>>>> expands on this idea a bit:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1
>>>>>> qMDLAf26
>>>>>> Q&t=5s
>>>>>> In short, we aren't just doing more work because developers
>>>>>> think it is
>>>>>> a good idea. This has potential to be one of the most useful
>>>>>> architectural changes in TripleO that we've made in years.
>>>>>> Could
>>>>>> significantly decrease our CI reasources if we use it to
>>>>>> replace the
>>>>>> existing scenarios jobs which take multiple VMs per job. Is a
>>>>>> building
>>>>>> block we could use for other features like and HA undercloud.
>>>>>> And yes,
>>>>>> it does also have a huge impact on developer velocity in that
>>>>>> many of
>>>>>> us already prefer to use the tool as a means of streamlining
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> dev/test cycles to minutes instead of hours. Why spend hours
>>>>>> running
>>>>>> quickstart Ansible scripts when in many cases you can just
>>>>>> doit.sh. htt
>>>>>> ps://github.com/dprince/undercloud_containers/blob/master/doit.
>>>>>> sh
>>>>> So like I've repeatedly said, I'm not completely against it as I
>>>>> agree
>>>>> what we have is not ideal.  I'm not -2, I'm -1 pending additional
>>>>> information. I'm trying to be realistic and reduce our risk for
>>>>> this
>>>>> cycle.
>>>> This reduces our complexity greatly I think in that once it is
>>>> completed
>>>> will allow us to eliminate two project (instack and instack-
>>>> undercloud) and
>>>> the maintenance thereof. Furthermore, as this dovetails nice with
>>>> the
>>>> Ansible
>>> I agree. So I think there's some misconceptions here about my
>>> thoughts
>>> on this effort. I am not against this effort. I am for this effort
>>> and
>>> wish to see more of it. I want to see the effort communicated
>>> publicly
>>> via ML and IRC meetings.  What I am against switching the default
>>> undercloud method until the containerization of the undercloud has
>>> the
>>> appropriate test coverage and documentation to ensure it is on par
>>> with what it is replacing.  Does this make sense?
>>>>>   IMHO doit.sh is not acceptable as an undercloud installer and
>>>>> this is what I've been trying to point out as the actual impact
>>>>> to the
>>>>> end user who has to use this thing.
>>>> doit.sh is an example of where the effort is today. It is
>>>> essentially the
>>>> same stuff we document online here:
>>>> http://tripleo.org/install/containers_deployment/undercloud.html.
>>>> Similar to quickstart it is just something meant to help you setup
>>>> a dev
>>>> environment.
>>> Right, providing something that the non-developer uses vs providing
>>> something for hacking are two separate things. Making it consumable
>>> by
>>> the end user (not developer) is what I'm pointing out that needs to
>>> be
>>> accounted for.  This is a recurring theme that I have pushed for in
>>> OpenStack to ensure that the operator (actual end user) is accounted
>>> for when making decisions.  Tripleo has not done a good job of this
>>> either.  Sure the referenced documentation works for the dev case,
>>> but
>>> probably not the actual deployer/operator case.
>> This will come in time. What I would encourage us to do upstream is
>> make as much progress on this in Queens as possible so that getting to
>> the point of polishing our documentation is the focus... instead of the
>> remaining work.
>> And to be clear all of this work advocates for the Operator just as
>> much as it does for the developer. No regressions, improved Ansible
>> feedback on the CLI, potential for future features around multitude and
>>   alignment of the architecture around containers. Boom! I think
>> operators will like all of this. We can and will document it.
>>    There needs to be a
>>> migration guide or documentation of old configuration -> new
>>> configuration for the people who are familiar with non-containerized
>>> undercloud vs containerized undercloud.  Do we have all the use cases
>>> accounted for etc. etc. This is the part that I don't think we have
>>> figured out and which is what I'm asking that we make sure we account
>>> for with this.
>> The use case is the replace instack-undercloud with no feature
>> regressions.
>>>>> We have an established
>>>>> installation method for the undercloud, that while isn't great,
>>>>> isn't
>>>>> a bash script with git fetches, etc.  So as for the
>>>>> implementation,
>>>>> this is what I want to see properly flushed out prior to
>>>>> accepting
>>>>> this feature as complete for Queens (and the new default).
>>>> Of course the feature would need to prove itself before it becomes
>>>> the new
>>>> default Undercloud. I'm trying to build consensus and get the team
>>>> focused
>>>> on these things.
>>>> What strikes me as odd is your earlier comment about " I want to
>>>> make sure
>>>> we're not just doing more work because we as developers think it's
>>>> a good
>>>> idea." I'm a developer and I do think this is a good idea. Please
>>>> don't try
>>>> to de-motivate this effort just because you happen to believe this.
>>>> It was
>>>> accepted for Pike and unfortunately we didn't get enough buy in
>>>> early enough
>>>> to get focus on it. Now that is starting to change and just as it
>>>> is you are
>>>> suggesting we not keep it a priority?
>>> Once again, I agree and I am on board to the end goal that I think is
>>> trying to be achieved by this effort. What I am currently not on
>>> board
>>> with is the time frame of for Queens based on concerns previously
>>> mentioned.  This is not about trying to demotivating an effort. It's
>>> about ensuring quality and something that is consumable by an
>>> additional set of end users of the software (the operator/deployer,
>>> not developer).  Given that we have not finished the overcloud
>>> deployment and are still working on fixing items found for that, I
>>> personally feel it's a bit early to consider switching the undercloud
>>> default install to a containerized method.  That being said, I have
>>> repeatedly stated that if we account for updates, upgrades, docs and
>>> the operator UX there's no problems with this effort. I just don't
>>> think it's realistic given current timelines (~9 weeks).
>>>   Please feel
>>> free to provide information/patches to the contrary.
>> Whether this feature makes the release or not I think it is too early
>> to say. What I can say is the amount of work remaining on the
>> Undercloud feature is IMO a good bit less than we knocked out in the
>> last release:
>> https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-composable-containers-underclo
>> ud
>> And regardless of whether we make the release or not there is a huge
>> value to moving the work forward now... if only to put us in a better
>> position for the next release.
>> I've been on the containers team for a while now and I'm more familiar
>> with the velocity that we could handle. Let us motivate ourselves and
>> give updates along the way over the next 2 months as this effort
>> progresses. Please don't throw "cold water" on why you don't think we
>> are going to make the release (especially as PTL, this can be quite
>> harmful to the effort for some). In fact, lets just stop talking about
>> Queens, and Rocky entirely. I think we can agree that this feature is a
>> high priority and have people move the effort forward as much as we
>> can.
>> This *is* a very important feature. It can be fun to work on. Let those
>> of us who are doing the work finish scoping it and at least have a
>> chance at making progress before you throw weight against us not making
>> the release months from now.
>>   I have not said
>>> don't work on it.  I just want to make sure we have all the pieces in
>>> place needed to consider it a proper replacement for the existing
>>> undercloud installation (by M2).  If anything there's probably more
>>> work that needs to be done and if we want to make it a priority to
>>> happen, then it needs to be documented and communicated so folks can
>>> assist as they have cycles.
>>>>> I would
>>>>> like to see a plan of what features need to be added (eg. the
>>>>> stuff on
>>>>> the etherpad), folks assigned to do this work, and estimated
>>>>> timelines.  Given that we shouldn't be making major feature
>>>>> changes
>>>>> after M2 (~9 weeks), I want to get an understanding of what is
>>>>> realistically going to make it.  If after reviewing the initial
>>>>> details we find that it's not actually going to make M2, then
>>>>> let's
>>>>> agree to this now rather than trying to force it in at the end.
>>>> All of this is forthcoming. Those details will come in time.
>>>>> I know you've been a great proponent of the containerized
>>>>> undercloud
>>>>> and I agree it offers a lot more for development efforts. But I
>>>>> just
>>>>> want to make sure that we are getting all the feedback we can
>>>>> before
>>>>> continuing down this path.  Since, as you point out, a bunch of
>>>>> this
>>>>> work is already available for consumption by developers, I don't
>>>>> see
>>>>> making it the new default as a requirement for Queens unless it's
>>>>> a
>>>>> fully implemented and tested.  There's nothing stopping folks
>>>>> from
>>>>> using it now and making incremental improvements during Queens
>>>>> and we
>>>>> commit to making it the new default for Rocky.
>>>>> The point of this cycle was supposed to be more
>>>>> stablization/getting
>>>>> all the containers in place. Doing something like this seems to
>>>>> go
>>>>> against what we were actually trying to achieve.  I'd rather make
>>>>> smaller incremental progress with your proposal being the end
>>>>> goal and
>>>>> agreeing that perhaps Rocky is more realistic for the default cut
>>>>> over.
>>>> I thought the point of this release was full containerization? And
>>>> part of
>>>> that is containerizing the undercloud too right?
>>> Not that I was aware of. Others have asked because they have not been
>>> aware that it included the undercloud.  Given that we are wanting to
>>> eventually look to kubernetes maybe we don't need to containerize the
>>> undercloud as it may be it could be discarded with that switch.
>> I don't think so. The whole point of the initial Undercloud work was
>> that it aligns the architectures. Using Kubernetes to maintain an
>> Undercloud would also be a valid approach I think. Perhaps a bit
>> overkill but it would be a super useful dev environment tool to develop
>>   Kubernetes services on regardless.
>> And again, there are no plans to containerize instack-undercloud
>> components as is. I think we have agreement that using containers in
>> the Undercloud is a high priority and we need to move this effort
>> forwards.
>> That's probably a longer discussion. It might need to be researched
>>> which is why it's important to understand why we're doing the
>>> containerization effort and what exactly it entails.  Given that I
>>> don't think we're looking to deploy kubernetes via
>>> THT/tripleo-puppet/containers, I wonder what impact this would have
>>> with this effort?  That's probably a conversation for another thread.
>>>>> Lastly, this isn't just a containers team thing. We've been
>>>>>> using the
>>>>>> undercloud_deploy architecture across many teams to help
>>>>>> develop for
>>>>>> almost an entire cycle now. Huge benefits. I would go as far as
>>>>>> saying
>>>>>> that undercloud_deploy was *the* biggest feature in Pike that
>>>>>> enabled
>>>>>> us to bang out a majority of the docker/service templates in
>>>>>> tripleo-
>>>>>> heat-templates.
>>>>>>   Given that etherpad
>>>>>>> appears to contain a pretty big list of features, are we
>>>>>>> going to be
>>>>>>> able to land all of them by M2?  Would it be beneficial to
>>>>>>> craft a
>>>>>>> basic spec related to this to ensure we are not missing
>>>>>>> additional
>>>>>>> things?
>>>>>> I'm not sure there is a lot of value in creating a spec at this
>>>>>> point.
>>>>>> We've already got an approved blueprint for the feature in Pike
>>>>>> here: h
>>>>>> ttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/tripleo/+spec/containerized-
>>>>>> undercloud
>>>>>> I think we might get more velocity out of grooming the etherpad
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> perhaps dividing this work among the appropriate teams.
>>>>> That's fine, but I would like to see additional efforts made to
>>>>> organize this work, assign folks and add proper timelines.
>>>>>>> Benefits of this work:
>>>>>>>>   -Alignment: aligning the undercloud and overcloud
>>>>>>>> installers gets
>>>>>>>> rid
>>>>>>>> of dual maintenance of services.
>>>>>>> I like reusing existing stuff. +1
>>>>>>>   -Composability: tripleo-heat-templates and our new Ansible
>>>>>>>> architecture around it are composable. This means any set
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>>> can be used to build up your own undercloud. In other words
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> framework here isn't just useful for "underclouds". It is
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> ability to deploy Tripleo on a single node with no external
>>>>>>>> dependencies. Single node TripleO installer. The containers
>>>>>>>> team
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> already been leveraging existing (experimental)
>>>>>>>> undercloud_deploy
>>>>>>>> installer to develop services for Pike.
>>>>>>> Is this something that is actually being asked for or is this
>>>>>>> just an
>>>>>>> added bonus because it allows developers to reduce what is
>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>> being deployed for testing?
>>>>>> There is an implied ask for this feature when a new developer
>>>>>> starts to
>>>>>> use TripleO. Right now resource bar is quite high for TripleO.
>>>>>> You have
>>>>>> to have a multi-node development environment at the very least
>>>>>> (one
>>>>>> undercloud node, and one overcloud node). The ideas we are
>>>>>> talking
>>>>>> about here short circuits this in many cases... where if you
>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>> testing HA services or Ironic you could simple use
>>>>>> undercloud_deploy to
>>>>>> test tripleo-heat-template changes on a single VM. Less
>>>>>> resources, and
>>>>>> much less time spent learning and waiting.
>>>>> IMHO I don't think the undercloud install is the limiting factor
>>>>> for
>>>>> new developers and I'm not sure this is actually reducing that
>>>>> complexity.  It does reduce the amount of hardware needed to
>>>>> develop
>>>>> some items, but there's a cost in complexity by moving the
>>>>> configuration to THT which is already where many people
>>>>> struggle.  As
>>>>> I previously mentioned, there's nothing stopping us from
>>>>> promoting the
>>>>> containerized undercloud as a development tool and ensuring it's
>>>>> full
>>>>> featured before switching to it as the default at a later date.
>>>> Because the new undercloud_deploy installer uses t-h-t we get
>>>> containers for
>>>> free. Additionally as we convert over to Ansible instead of Heat
>>>> software
>>>> deployments we also get better operator feedback there as well.
>>>> Woudn't it
>>>> be nice to have an Undercloud installer driven by Ansible instead
>>>> of Python
>>>> and tripleo-image-elements?
>>> Yup, and once again I recognize this as a benefit.
>>>> The reason I linked in doit.sh above (and if you actually go and
>>>> look at the
>>>> recent patches) we are already wiring these things up right now
>>>> (before M1!)
>>>> and it looks really nice. As we eventually move away from Puppet
>>>> for
>>>> configuration that too goes away. So I think the idea here is a
>>>> net-reduction in complexity because we no longer have to maintain
>>>> instack-undercloud, puppet modules, and elements.
>>>> It isn't that the undercloud install is a limiting factor. It is
>>>> that the
>>>> set of services making up your "Undercloud" can be anything you
>>>> want because
>>>> t-h-t supports all of our services. Anything you want with minimal
>>>> t-h-t,
>>>> Ansible, and containers. This means you can effectively develop on
>>>> a single
>>>> node for many cases and it will just work in a multi-node Overcloud
>>>> setup
>>>> too because we have the same architecture.
>>> My concern is making sure we aren't moving too fast and introducing
>>> more regressions/bugs/missing use cases/etc. My hope is by
>>> documenting
>>> all of this, ensuring we have proper expectations around a definition
>>> of done (and time frames), and allowing for additional review, we
>>> will
>>> reduce the risk introduced by this switch.  These types of things
>>> align with what we talked about at the PTG in during the retro[0]
>>> (see: start define definition of done,  start status reporting on ML,
>>> stop over committing, stop big change without tests, less complexity,
>>> etc, etc).  This stuff's complicated, let's make sure we do it right.
>>> Thanks,
>>> -Alex
>>> [0] http://people.redhat.com/aschultz/denver-ptg/tripleo-ptg-retro.jp
>>> g
>>> Dan
>>>>>>>   -Development: The containerized undercloud is a great
>>>>>>>> development
>>>>>>>> tool. It utilizes the same framework as the full overcloud
>>>>>>>> deployment
>>>>>>>> but takes about 20 minutes to deploy.  This means faster
>>>>>>>> iterations,
>>>>>>>> less waiting, and more testing.  Having this be a first
>>>>>>>> class
>>>>>>>> citizen
>>>>>>>> in the ecosystem will ensure this platform is functioning
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> developers to use all the time.
>>>>>>> Seems to go with the previous question about the re-usability
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> people who are not developers.  Has everyone (including non-
>>>>>>> container
>>>>>>> folks) tried this out and attest that it's a better workflow
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> them?
>>>>>>>   Are there use cases that are made worse by switching?
>>>>>> I would let other chime in but the feedback I've gotten has
>>>>>> mostly been
>>>>>>   that it improves the dev/test cycle greatly.
>>>>>>>   -CI resources: better use of CI resources. At the PTG we
>>>>>>>> received
>>>>>>>> feedback from the OpenStack infrastructure team that our
>>>>>>>> upstream
>>>>>>>> CI
>>>>>>>> resource usage is quite high at times (even as high as 50%
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> total). Because of the shared framework and single node
>>>>>>>> capabilities we
>>>>>>>> can re-architecture much of our upstream CI matrix around
>>>>>>>> single
>>>>>>>> node.
>>>>>>>> We no longer require multinode jobs to be able to test many
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> services in tripleo-heat-templates... we can just use a
>>>>>>>> single
>>>>>>>> cloud VM
>>>>>>>> instead. We'll still want multinode undercloud -> overcloud
>>>>>>>> jobs
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> testing things like HA and baremetal provisioning. But we
>>>>>>>> can cover
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> large set of the services (in particular many of the new
>>>>>>>> scenario
>>>>>>>> jobs
>>>>>>>> we added in Pike) with single node CI test runs in much
>>>>>>>> less time.
>>>>>>> I like this idea but would like to see more details around
>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>> Since this is a new feature we need to make sure that we are
>>>>>>> properly
>>>>>>> covering the containerized undercloud with CI as well.  I
>>>>>>> think we
>>>>>>> need 3 jobs to properly cover this feature before marking it
>>>>>>> done. I
>>>>>>> added them to the etherpad but I think we need to ensure the
>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>> 3 jobs are defined and voting by M2 to consider actually
>>>>>>> switching
>>>>>>> from the current instack-undercloud installation to the
>>>>>>> containerized
>>>>>>> version.
>>>>>>> 1) undercloud-containers - a containerized install, should be
>>>>>>> voting
>>>>>>> by m1
>>>>>>> 2) undercloud-containers-update - minor updates run on
>>>>>>> containerized
>>>>>>> underclouds, should be voting by m2
>>>>>>> 3) undercloud-containers-upgrade - major upgrade from
>>>>>>> non-containerized to containerized undercloud, should be
>>>>>>> voting by
>>>>>>> m2.
>>>>>>> If we have these jobs, is there anything we can drop or mark
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> covered that is currently being covered by an overcloud job?
>>>>> Can you please comment on these expectations as being
>>>>> achievable?  If
>>>>> they are not achievable, I don't think we can agree to switch the
>>>>> default for Queens.  As we shipped the 'undercloud deploy' as
>>>>> experimental for Pike, it's well within reason to continue to do
>>>>> so
>>>>> for Queens. Perhaps we change the labeling to beta or working it
>>>>> into
>>>>> a --containerized option for 'undercloud install'.
>>>>> I think my ask for the undercloud-containers job as non-voting by
>>>>> m1
>>>>> is achievable today because it's currently green (pending any
>>>>> zuul
>>>>> freezes). My concern is really minor updates and upgrades need to
>>>>> be
>>>>> understood and accounted for ASAP.  If we're truly able to reuse
>>>>> some
>>>>> of the work we did for O->P upgrades, then these should be fairly
>>>>> straight forward things to accomplish and there would be fewer
>>>>> blockers to make the switch.
>>>>>   -Containers: There are no plans to containerize the
>>>>>>>> existing
>>>>>>>> instack-
>>>>>>>> undercloud work. By moving our undercloud installer to a
>>>>>>>> tripleo-
>>>>>>>> heat-
>>>>>>>> templates and Ansible architecture we can leverage
>>>>>>>> containers.
>>>>>>>> Interestingly, the same installer also supports baremetal
>>>>>>>> (package)
>>>>>>>> installation as well at this point. Like to overcloud
>>>>>>>> however I
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> making containers our undercloud default would better align
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> TripleO
>>>>>>>> tooling.
>>>>>>>> We are actively working through a few issues with the
>>>>>>>> deployment
>>>>>>>> framework Ansible effort to fully integrate that into the
>>>>>>>> undercloud
>>>>>>>> installer. We are also reaching out to other teams like the
>>>>>>>> UI and
>>>>>>>> Security folks to coordinate the efforts around those
>>>>>>>> components.
>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>> there are any questions about the effort or you'd like to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> involved
>>>>>>>> in the implementation let us know. Stay tuned for more
>>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>>> updates
>>>>>>>> as we organize to get as much of this in M1 and M2 as
>>>>>>>> possible.
>>>>>>> I would like to see weekly updates on this effort during the
>>>>>>> IRC
>>>>>>> meeting. As previously mentioned around squad status, I'll be
>>>>>>> asking
>>>>>>> for them during the meeting so it would be nice to get an
>>>>>>> update this
>>>>>>> on a weekly basis so we can make sure that we'll be OK to cut
>>>>>>> over.
>>>>>>> Also what does the cut over plan look like?  This is
>>>>>>> something that
>>>>>>> might be beneficial to have in a spec. IMHO, I'm ok to
>>>>>>> continue
>>>>>>> pushing the container effort using the openstack undercloud
>>>>>>> deploy
>>>>>>> method for now. Once we have voting CI jobs and the feature
>>>>>>> list has
>>>>>>> been covered then we can evaluate if we've made the M2 time
>>>>>>> frame to
>>>>>>> switching openstack undercloud deploy to be the new
>>>>>>> undercloud
>>>>>>> install.  I want to make sure we don't introduce regressions
>>>>>>> and are
>>>>>>> doing thing in a user friendly fashion since the undercloud
>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>> first intro an end user gets to tripleo. It would be a good
>>>>>>> idea to
>>>>>>> review what the new install process looks like and make sure
>>>>>>> it "just
>>>>>>> works" given that the current process[0] (with all it's
>>>>>>> flaws) is
>>>>>>> fairly trivial to perform.
>>>>> Basically what I would like to see before making this new default
>>>>> is:
>>>>> 1) minor updates work (with CI)
>>>>> 2) P->Q upgrades work (with CI)
>>>>> 3) Documentation complete
>>>>> 4) no UX impact for installation (eg. how they installed it
>>>>> before is
>>>>> the same as they install it now for containers)
>>>>> If these are accounted for and completed before M2 then I would
>>>>> be +2
>>>>> on the switch.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> -Alex
>>>>>>> [0] https://docs.openstack.org/tripleo-docs/latest/install/in
>>>>>>> stallati
>>>>>>> on/installation.html#installing-the-undercloud
>>>>>>> On behalf of the containers team,
>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>> [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-queens-undercl
>>>>>>>> oud-cont
>>>>>>>> aine
>>>>>>>> rs
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