[openstack-dev] [TripleO] containerized undercloud in Queens

Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur at redhat.com
Wed Oct 4 13:10:29 UTC 2017

(top-posting, as it is not a direct response to a specific line)

This is your friendly reminder that we're not quite near containerized 
ironic-inspector. The THT for it has probably never been tested at all, and the 
iptables magic we do may simply not be containers-compatible. Milan would 
appreciate any help with his ironic-inspector rework.


On 10/04/2017 03:00 PM, Dan Prince wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-10-03 at 16:03 -0600, Alex Schultz wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 2:46 PM, Dan Prince <dprince at redhat.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Alex Schultz <aschultz at redhat.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Dan Prince <dprince at redhat.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 2017-10-02 at 15:20 -0600, Alex Schultz wrote:
>>>>>> Hey Dan,
>>>>>> Thanks for sending out a note about this. I have a few
>>>>>> questions
>>>>>> inline.
>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 6:02 AM, Dan Prince <dprince at redhat.co
>>>>>> m>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> One of the things the TripleO containers team is planning
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> tackling
>>>>>>> in Queens is fully containerizing the undercloud. At the
>>>>>>> PTG we
>>>>>>> created
>>>>>>> an etherpad [1] that contains a list of features that need
>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>> implemented to fully replace instack-undercloud.
>>>>>> I know we talked about this at the PTG and I was skeptical
>>>>>> that this
>>>>>> will land in Queens. With the exception of the Container's
>>>>>> team
>>>>>> wanting this, I'm not sure there is an actual end user who is
>>>>>> looking
>>>>>> for the feature so I want to make sure we're not just doing
>>>>>> more work
>>>>>> because we as developers think it's a good idea.
>>>>> I've heard from several operators that they were actually
>>>>> surprised we
>>>>> implemented containers in the Overcloud first. Validating a new
>>>>> deployment framework on a single node Undercloud (for
>>>>> operators) before
>>>>> overtaking their entire cloud deployment has a lot of merit to
>>>>> it IMO.
>>>>> When you share the same deployment architecture across the
>>>>> overcloud/undercloud it puts us in a better position to decide
>>>>> where to
>>>>> expose new features to operators first (when creating the
>>>>> undercloud or
>>>>> overcloud for example).
>>>>> Also, if you read my email again I've explicitly listed the
>>>>> "Containers" benefit last. While I think moving the undercloud
>>>>> to
>>>>> containers is a great benefit all by itself this is more of a
>>>>> "framework alignment" in TripleO and gets us out of maintaining
>>>>> huge
>>>>> amounts of technical debt. Re-using the same framework for the
>>>>> undercloud and overcloud has a lot of merit. It effectively
>>>>> streamlines
>>>>> the development process for service developers, and 3rd parties
>>>>> wishing
>>>>> to integrate some of their components on a single node. Why be
>>>>> forced
>>>>> to create a multi-node dev environment if you don't have to
>>>>> (aren't
>>>>> using HA for example).
>>>>> Lets be honest. While instack-undercloud helped solve the old
>>>>> "seed" VM
>>>>> issue it was outdated the day it landed upstream. The entire
>>>>> premise of
>>>>> the tool is that it uses old style "elements" to create the
>>>>> undercloud
>>>>> and we moved away from those as the primary means driving the
>>>>> creation
>>>>> of the Overcloud years ago at this point. The new
>>>>> 'undercloud_deploy'
>>>>> installer gets us back to our roots by once again sharing the
>>>>> same
>>>>> architecture to create the over and underclouds. A demo from
>>>>> long ago
>>>>> expands on this idea a bit:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1
>>>>> qMDLAf26
>>>>> Q&t=5s
>>>>> In short, we aren't just doing more work because developers
>>>>> think it is
>>>>> a good idea. This has potential to be one of the most useful
>>>>> architectural changes in TripleO that we've made in years.
>>>>> Could
>>>>> significantly decrease our CI reasources if we use it to
>>>>> replace the
>>>>> existing scenarios jobs which take multiple VMs per job. Is a
>>>>> building
>>>>> block we could use for other features like and HA undercloud.
>>>>> And yes,
>>>>> it does also have a huge impact on developer velocity in that
>>>>> many of
>>>>> us already prefer to use the tool as a means of streamlining
>>>>> our
>>>>> dev/test cycles to minutes instead of hours. Why spend hours
>>>>> running
>>>>> quickstart Ansible scripts when in many cases you can just
>>>>> doit.sh. htt
>>>>> ps://github.com/dprince/undercloud_containers/blob/master/doit.
>>>>> sh
>>>> So like I've repeatedly said, I'm not completely against it as I
>>>> agree
>>>> what we have is not ideal.  I'm not -2, I'm -1 pending additional
>>>> information. I'm trying to be realistic and reduce our risk for
>>>> this
>>>> cycle.
>>> This reduces our complexity greatly I think in that once it is
>>> completed
>>> will allow us to eliminate two project (instack and instack-
>>> undercloud) and
>>> the maintenance thereof. Furthermore, as this dovetails nice with
>>> the
>>> Ansible
>> I agree. So I think there's some misconceptions here about my
>> thoughts
>> on this effort. I am not against this effort. I am for this effort
>> and
>> wish to see more of it. I want to see the effort communicated
>> publicly
>> via ML and IRC meetings.  What I am against switching the default
>> undercloud method until the containerization of the undercloud has
>> the
>> appropriate test coverage and documentation to ensure it is on par
>> with what it is replacing.  Does this make sense?
>>>>   IMHO doit.sh is not acceptable as an undercloud installer and
>>>> this is what I've been trying to point out as the actual impact
>>>> to the
>>>> end user who has to use this thing.
>>> doit.sh is an example of where the effort is today. It is
>>> essentially the
>>> same stuff we document online here:
>>> http://tripleo.org/install/containers_deployment/undercloud.html.
>>> Similar to quickstart it is just something meant to help you setup
>>> a dev
>>> environment.
>> Right, providing something that the non-developer uses vs providing
>> something for hacking are two separate things. Making it consumable
>> by
>> the end user (not developer) is what I'm pointing out that needs to
>> be
>> accounted for.  This is a recurring theme that I have pushed for in
>> OpenStack to ensure that the operator (actual end user) is accounted
>> for when making decisions.  Tripleo has not done a good job of this
>> either.  Sure the referenced documentation works for the dev case,
>> but
>> probably not the actual deployer/operator case.
> This will come in time. What I would encourage us to do upstream is
> make as much progress on this in Queens as possible so that getting to
> the point of polishing our documentation is the focus... instead of the
> remaining work.
> And to be clear all of this work advocates for the Operator just as
> much as it does for the developer. No regressions, improved Ansible
> feedback on the CLI, potential for future features around multitude and
>   alignment of the architecture around containers. Boom! I think
> operators will like all of this. We can and will document it.
>>    There needs to be a
>> migration guide or documentation of old configuration -> new
>> configuration for the people who are familiar with non-containerized
>> undercloud vs containerized undercloud.  Do we have all the use cases
>> accounted for etc. etc. This is the part that I don't think we have
>> figured out and which is what I'm asking that we make sure we account
>> for with this.
> The use case is the replace instack-undercloud with no feature
> regressions.
>>>> We have an established
>>>> installation method for the undercloud, that while isn't great,
>>>> isn't
>>>> a bash script with git fetches, etc.  So as for the
>>>> implementation,
>>>> this is what I want to see properly flushed out prior to
>>>> accepting
>>>> this feature as complete for Queens (and the new default).
>>> Of course the feature would need to prove itself before it becomes
>>> the new
>>> default Undercloud. I'm trying to build consensus and get the team
>>> focused
>>> on these things.
>>> What strikes me as odd is your earlier comment about " I want to
>>> make sure
>>> we're not just doing more work because we as developers think it's
>>> a good
>>> idea." I'm a developer and I do think this is a good idea. Please
>>> don't try
>>> to de-motivate this effort just because you happen to believe this.
>>> It was
>>> accepted for Pike and unfortunately we didn't get enough buy in
>>> early enough
>>> to get focus on it. Now that is starting to change and just as it
>>> is you are
>>> suggesting we not keep it a priority?
>> Once again, I agree and I am on board to the end goal that I think is
>> trying to be achieved by this effort. What I am currently not on
>> board
>> with is the time frame of for Queens based on concerns previously
>> mentioned.  This is not about trying to demotivating an effort. It's
>> about ensuring quality and something that is consumable by an
>> additional set of end users of the software (the operator/deployer,
>> not developer).  Given that we have not finished the overcloud
>> deployment and are still working on fixing items found for that, I
>> personally feel it's a bit early to consider switching the undercloud
>> default install to a containerized method.  That being said, I have
>> repeatedly stated that if we account for updates, upgrades, docs and
>> the operator UX there's no problems with this effort. I just don't
>> think it's realistic given current timelines (~9 weeks).
>>   Please feel
>> free to provide information/patches to the contrary.
> Whether this feature makes the release or not I think it is too early
> to say. What I can say is the amount of work remaining on the
> Undercloud feature is IMO a good bit less than we knocked out in the
> last release:
> https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-composable-containers-underclo
> ud
> And regardless of whether we make the release or not there is a huge
> value to moving the work forward now... if only to put us in a better
> position for the next release.
> I've been on the containers team for a while now and I'm more familiar
> with the velocity that we could handle. Let us motivate ourselves and
> give updates along the way over the next 2 months as this effort
> progresses. Please don't throw "cold water" on why you don't think we
> are going to make the release (especially as PTL, this can be quite
> harmful to the effort for some). In fact, lets just stop talking about
> Queens, and Rocky entirely. I think we can agree that this feature is a
> high priority and have people move the effort forward as much as we
> can.
> This *is* a very important feature. It can be fun to work on. Let those
> of us who are doing the work finish scoping it and at least have a
> chance at making progress before you throw weight against us not making
> the release months from now.
>>   I have not said
>> don't work on it.  I just want to make sure we have all the pieces in
>> place needed to consider it a proper replacement for the existing
>> undercloud installation (by M2).  If anything there's probably more
>> work that needs to be done and if we want to make it a priority to
>> happen, then it needs to be documented and communicated so folks can
>> assist as they have cycles.
>>>> I would
>>>> like to see a plan of what features need to be added (eg. the
>>>> stuff on
>>>> the etherpad), folks assigned to do this work, and estimated
>>>> timelines.  Given that we shouldn't be making major feature
>>>> changes
>>>> after M2 (~9 weeks), I want to get an understanding of what is
>>>> realistically going to make it.  If after reviewing the initial
>>>> details we find that it's not actually going to make M2, then
>>>> let's
>>>> agree to this now rather than trying to force it in at the end.
>>> All of this is forthcoming. Those details will come in time.
>>>> I know you've been a great proponent of the containerized
>>>> undercloud
>>>> and I agree it offers a lot more for development efforts. But I
>>>> just
>>>> want to make sure that we are getting all the feedback we can
>>>> before
>>>> continuing down this path.  Since, as you point out, a bunch of
>>>> this
>>>> work is already available for consumption by developers, I don't
>>>> see
>>>> making it the new default as a requirement for Queens unless it's
>>>> a
>>>> fully implemented and tested.  There's nothing stopping folks
>>>> from
>>>> using it now and making incremental improvements during Queens
>>>> and we
>>>> commit to making it the new default for Rocky.
>>>> The point of this cycle was supposed to be more
>>>> stablization/getting
>>>> all the containers in place. Doing something like this seems to
>>>> go
>>>> against what we were actually trying to achieve.  I'd rather make
>>>> smaller incremental progress with your proposal being the end
>>>> goal and
>>>> agreeing that perhaps Rocky is more realistic for the default cut
>>>> over.
>>> I thought the point of this release was full containerization? And
>>> part of
>>> that is containerizing the undercloud too right?
>> Not that I was aware of. Others have asked because they have not been
>> aware that it included the undercloud.  Given that we are wanting to
>> eventually look to kubernetes maybe we don't need to containerize the
>> undercloud as it may be it could be discarded with that switch.
> I don't think so. The whole point of the initial Undercloud work was
> that it aligns the architectures. Using Kubernetes to maintain an
> Undercloud would also be a valid approach I think. Perhaps a bit
> overkill but it would be a super useful dev environment tool to develop
>   Kubernetes services on regardless.
> And again, there are no plans to containerize instack-undercloud
> components as is. I think we have agreement that using containers in
> the Undercloud is a high priority and we need to move this effort
> forwards.
>> That's probably a longer discussion. It might need to be researched
>> which is why it's important to understand why we're doing the
>> containerization effort and what exactly it entails.  Given that I
>> don't think we're looking to deploy kubernetes via
>> THT/tripleo-puppet/containers, I wonder what impact this would have
>> with this effort?  That's probably a conversation for another thread.
>>>>> Lastly, this isn't just a containers team thing. We've been
>>>>> using the
>>>>> undercloud_deploy architecture across many teams to help
>>>>> develop for
>>>>> almost an entire cycle now. Huge benefits. I would go as far as
>>>>> saying
>>>>> that undercloud_deploy was *the* biggest feature in Pike that
>>>>> enabled
>>>>> us to bang out a majority of the docker/service templates in
>>>>> tripleo-
>>>>> heat-templates.
>>>>>>   Given that etherpad
>>>>>> appears to contain a pretty big list of features, are we
>>>>>> going to be
>>>>>> able to land all of them by M2?  Would it be beneficial to
>>>>>> craft a
>>>>>> basic spec related to this to ensure we are not missing
>>>>>> additional
>>>>>> things?
>>>>> I'm not sure there is a lot of value in creating a spec at this
>>>>> point.
>>>>> We've already got an approved blueprint for the feature in Pike
>>>>> here: h
>>>>> ttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/tripleo/+spec/containerized-
>>>>> undercloud
>>>>> I think we might get more velocity out of grooming the etherpad
>>>>> and
>>>>> perhaps dividing this work among the appropriate teams.
>>>> That's fine, but I would like to see additional efforts made to
>>>> organize this work, assign folks and add proper timelines.
>>>>>>> Benefits of this work:
>>>>>>>   -Alignment: aligning the undercloud and overcloud
>>>>>>> installers gets
>>>>>>> rid
>>>>>>> of dual maintenance of services.
>>>>>> I like reusing existing stuff. +1
>>>>>>>   -Composability: tripleo-heat-templates and our new Ansible
>>>>>>> architecture around it are composable. This means any set
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>> can be used to build up your own undercloud. In other words
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> framework here isn't just useful for "underclouds". It is
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> ability to deploy Tripleo on a single node with no external
>>>>>>> dependencies. Single node TripleO installer. The containers
>>>>>>> team
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> already been leveraging existing (experimental)
>>>>>>> undercloud_deploy
>>>>>>> installer to develop services for Pike.
>>>>>> Is this something that is actually being asked for or is this
>>>>>> just an
>>>>>> added bonus because it allows developers to reduce what is
>>>>>> actually
>>>>>> being deployed for testing?
>>>>> There is an implied ask for this feature when a new developer
>>>>> starts to
>>>>> use TripleO. Right now resource bar is quite high for TripleO.
>>>>> You have
>>>>> to have a multi-node development environment at the very least
>>>>> (one
>>>>> undercloud node, and one overcloud node). The ideas we are
>>>>> talking
>>>>> about here short circuits this in many cases... where if you
>>>>> aren't
>>>>> testing HA services or Ironic you could simple use
>>>>> undercloud_deploy to
>>>>> test tripleo-heat-template changes on a single VM. Less
>>>>> resources, and
>>>>> much less time spent learning and waiting.
>>>> IMHO I don't think the undercloud install is the limiting factor
>>>> for
>>>> new developers and I'm not sure this is actually reducing that
>>>> complexity.  It does reduce the amount of hardware needed to
>>>> develop
>>>> some items, but there's a cost in complexity by moving the
>>>> configuration to THT which is already where many people
>>>> struggle.  As
>>>> I previously mentioned, there's nothing stopping us from
>>>> promoting the
>>>> containerized undercloud as a development tool and ensuring it's
>>>> full
>>>> featured before switching to it as the default at a later date.
>>> Because the new undercloud_deploy installer uses t-h-t we get
>>> containers for
>>> free. Additionally as we convert over to Ansible instead of Heat
>>> software
>>> deployments we also get better operator feedback there as well.
>>> Woudn't it
>>> be nice to have an Undercloud installer driven by Ansible instead
>>> of Python
>>> and tripleo-image-elements?
>> Yup, and once again I recognize this as a benefit.
>>> The reason I linked in doit.sh above (and if you actually go and
>>> look at the
>>> recent patches) we are already wiring these things up right now
>>> (before M1!)
>>> and it looks really nice. As we eventually move away from Puppet
>>> for
>>> configuration that too goes away. So I think the idea here is a
>>> net-reduction in complexity because we no longer have to maintain
>>> instack-undercloud, puppet modules, and elements.
>>> It isn't that the undercloud install is a limiting factor. It is
>>> that the
>>> set of services making up your "Undercloud" can be anything you
>>> want because
>>> t-h-t supports all of our services. Anything you want with minimal
>>> t-h-t,
>>> Ansible, and containers. This means you can effectively develop on
>>> a single
>>> node for many cases and it will just work in a multi-node Overcloud
>>> setup
>>> too because we have the same architecture.
>> My concern is making sure we aren't moving too fast and introducing
>> more regressions/bugs/missing use cases/etc. My hope is by
>> documenting
>> all of this, ensuring we have proper expectations around a definition
>> of done (and time frames), and allowing for additional review, we
>> will
>> reduce the risk introduced by this switch.  These types of things
>> align with what we talked about at the PTG in during the retro[0]
>> (see: start define definition of done,  start status reporting on ML,
>> stop over committing, stop big change without tests, less complexity,
>> etc, etc).  This stuff's complicated, let's make sure we do it right.
>> Thanks,
>> -Alex
>> [0] http://people.redhat.com/aschultz/denver-ptg/tripleo-ptg-retro.jp
>> g
>>> Dan
>>>>>>>   -Development: The containerized undercloud is a great
>>>>>>> development
>>>>>>> tool. It utilizes the same framework as the full overcloud
>>>>>>> deployment
>>>>>>> but takes about 20 minutes to deploy.  This means faster
>>>>>>> iterations,
>>>>>>> less waiting, and more testing.  Having this be a first
>>>>>>> class
>>>>>>> citizen
>>>>>>> in the ecosystem will ensure this platform is functioning
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> developers to use all the time.
>>>>>> Seems to go with the previous question about the re-usability
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> people who are not developers.  Has everyone (including non-
>>>>>> container
>>>>>> folks) tried this out and attest that it's a better workflow
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> them?
>>>>>>   Are there use cases that are made worse by switching?
>>>>> I would let other chime in but the feedback I've gotten has
>>>>> mostly been
>>>>>   that it improves the dev/test cycle greatly.
>>>>>>>   -CI resources: better use of CI resources. At the PTG we
>>>>>>> received
>>>>>>> feedback from the OpenStack infrastructure team that our
>>>>>>> upstream
>>>>>>> CI
>>>>>>> resource usage is quite high at times (even as high as 50%
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> total). Because of the shared framework and single node
>>>>>>> capabilities we
>>>>>>> can re-architecture much of our upstream CI matrix around
>>>>>>> single
>>>>>>> node.
>>>>>>> We no longer require multinode jobs to be able to test many
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> services in tripleo-heat-templates... we can just use a
>>>>>>> single
>>>>>>> cloud VM
>>>>>>> instead. We'll still want multinode undercloud -> overcloud
>>>>>>> jobs
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> testing things like HA and baremetal provisioning. But we
>>>>>>> can cover
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> large set of the services (in particular many of the new
>>>>>>> scenario
>>>>>>> jobs
>>>>>>> we added in Pike) with single node CI test runs in much
>>>>>>> less time.
>>>>>> I like this idea but would like to see more details around
>>>>>> this.
>>>>>> Since this is a new feature we need to make sure that we are
>>>>>> properly
>>>>>> covering the containerized undercloud with CI as well.  I
>>>>>> think we
>>>>>> need 3 jobs to properly cover this feature before marking it
>>>>>> done. I
>>>>>> added them to the etherpad but I think we need to ensure the
>>>>>> following
>>>>>> 3 jobs are defined and voting by M2 to consider actually
>>>>>> switching
>>>>>> from the current instack-undercloud installation to the
>>>>>> containerized
>>>>>> version.
>>>>>> 1) undercloud-containers - a containerized install, should be
>>>>>> voting
>>>>>> by m1
>>>>>> 2) undercloud-containers-update - minor updates run on
>>>>>> containerized
>>>>>> underclouds, should be voting by m2
>>>>>> 3) undercloud-containers-upgrade - major upgrade from
>>>>>> non-containerized to containerized undercloud, should be
>>>>>> voting by
>>>>>> m2.
>>>>>> If we have these jobs, is there anything we can drop or mark
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> covered that is currently being covered by an overcloud job?
>>>> Can you please comment on these expectations as being
>>>> achievable?  If
>>>> they are not achievable, I don't think we can agree to switch the
>>>> default for Queens.  As we shipped the 'undercloud deploy' as
>>>> experimental for Pike, it's well within reason to continue to do
>>>> so
>>>> for Queens. Perhaps we change the labeling to beta or working it
>>>> into
>>>> a --containerized option for 'undercloud install'.
>>>> I think my ask for the undercloud-containers job as non-voting by
>>>> m1
>>>> is achievable today because it's currently green (pending any
>>>> zuul
>>>> freezes). My concern is really minor updates and upgrades need to
>>>> be
>>>> understood and accounted for ASAP.  If we're truly able to reuse
>>>> some
>>>> of the work we did for O->P upgrades, then these should be fairly
>>>> straight forward things to accomplish and there would be fewer
>>>> blockers to make the switch.
>>>>>>>   -Containers: There are no plans to containerize the
>>>>>>> existing
>>>>>>> instack-
>>>>>>> undercloud work. By moving our undercloud installer to a
>>>>>>> tripleo-
>>>>>>> heat-
>>>>>>> templates and Ansible architecture we can leverage
>>>>>>> containers.
>>>>>>> Interestingly, the same installer also supports baremetal
>>>>>>> (package)
>>>>>>> installation as well at this point. Like to overcloud
>>>>>>> however I
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> making containers our undercloud default would better align
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> TripleO
>>>>>>> tooling.
>>>>>>> We are actively working through a few issues with the
>>>>>>> deployment
>>>>>>> framework Ansible effort to fully integrate that into the
>>>>>>> undercloud
>>>>>>> installer. We are also reaching out to other teams like the
>>>>>>> UI and
>>>>>>> Security folks to coordinate the efforts around those
>>>>>>> components.
>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>> there are any questions about the effort or you'd like to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> involved
>>>>>>> in the implementation let us know. Stay tuned for more
>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>> updates
>>>>>>> as we organize to get as much of this in M1 and M2 as
>>>>>>> possible.
>>>>>> I would like to see weekly updates on this effort during the
>>>>>> IRC
>>>>>> meeting. As previously mentioned around squad status, I'll be
>>>>>> asking
>>>>>> for them during the meeting so it would be nice to get an
>>>>>> update this
>>>>>> on a weekly basis so we can make sure that we'll be OK to cut
>>>>>> over.
>>>>>> Also what does the cut over plan look like?  This is
>>>>>> something that
>>>>>> might be beneficial to have in a spec. IMHO, I'm ok to
>>>>>> continue
>>>>>> pushing the container effort using the openstack undercloud
>>>>>> deploy
>>>>>> method for now. Once we have voting CI jobs and the feature
>>>>>> list has
>>>>>> been covered then we can evaluate if we've made the M2 time
>>>>>> frame to
>>>>>> switching openstack undercloud deploy to be the new
>>>>>> undercloud
>>>>>> install.  I want to make sure we don't introduce regressions
>>>>>> and are
>>>>>> doing thing in a user friendly fashion since the undercloud
>>>>>> is the
>>>>>> first intro an end user gets to tripleo. It would be a good
>>>>>> idea to
>>>>>> review what the new install process looks like and make sure
>>>>>> it "just
>>>>>> works" given that the current process[0] (with all it's
>>>>>> flaws) is
>>>>>> fairly trivial to perform.
>>>> Basically what I would like to see before making this new default
>>>> is:
>>>> 1) minor updates work (with CI)
>>>> 2) P->Q upgrades work (with CI)
>>>> 3) Documentation complete
>>>> 4) no UX impact for installation (eg. how they installed it
>>>> before is
>>>> the same as they install it now for containers)
>>>> If these are accounted for and completed before M2 then I would
>>>> be +2
>>>> on the switch.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> -Alex
>>>>>> [0] https://docs.openstack.org/tripleo-docs/latest/install/in
>>>>>> stallati
>>>>>> on/installation.html#installing-the-undercloud
>>>>>>> On behalf of the containers team,
>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>> [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-queens-undercl
>>>>>>> oud-cont
>>>>>>> aine
>>>>>>> rs
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