[openstack-dev] [security] [salt] Removal of Security and OpenStackSalt project teams from the Big Tent
Steven Dake (stdake)
stdake at cisco.com
Sat Sep 24 01:06:53 UTC 2016
+1! The security project adds tremendous value to OpenStack.
Regards
-steve
From: Doug Hellmann <doug at doughellmann.com>
Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" <openstack-dev at lists.openstack.org>
Date: Friday, September 23, 2016 at 10:35 AM
To: openstack-dev <openstack-dev at lists.openstack.org>
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [security] [salt] Removal of Security and OpenStackSalt project teams from the Big Tent
Excerpts from Rob C's message of 2016-09-23 17:46:46 +0100:
I wanted to provide a quick update from Security.
We had our weekly IRC meeting yesterday, dhellman was kind enough to attend
to help broker some of the discussion. In advance of the meeting I prepared
a blog post where I tried to articulate my position and where I think
things need to go next [1]. This was discussed at length during the IRC
meeting [2]. We discussed the option of becoming a WG or staying in the big
tent, this resulted in a vote, where the team all indicated their desire to
stay within the big tent.
My proposal for the future is outlined in some depth with [1] but the
summary is that we've identified the areas that we need to improve on in
order to be better members of the community, we want to stay within the
big-tent and for me to maintain leadership through this transformational
process with a view to having multiple candidates stand in the next
election.
Cheers
-Rob
Thanks, Rob. Based on the discussions yesterday I think the team has a
better understanding of the communication issues and I'm convinced that
everyone is committed to improving. I support keeping the team in the
tent.
Doug
[1]
https://openstack-security.github.io/organization/2016/09/22/maturing-the-security-project.html
[2]
http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/security/2016/security.2016-09-22-17.00.log.html
On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 4:23 AM, Davanum Srinivas <davanum at gmail.com<mailto:davanum at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Steven,
>
> Fair point.
>
> Thanks,
> Dims
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Steven Dake (stdake) <stdake at cisco.com<mailto:stdake at cisco.com>>
> wrote:
> > Dims,
> >
> > This isn’t any of my particular business except it could affect emerging
> technology projects (which I find important to OpenStack’s future)
> negatively – so I thought I’d chime in.
> >
> > A lack of activity in a specs repo doesn’t mean much to me. For
> example, as Kolla was an emerging project we didn’t use any specs process
> at all (or very rarely). There is a reason behind this. Now that Kolla is
> stable and reliable and we feel we are not an emerging project, we plan to
> make use of a specs repo starting in Ocata.
> >
> > I have no particular concerns with the other commentary – but please
> don’t judge a project by activity or lack of activity in one repo of its
> deliverables. Judge it holistically (You are judging holistically. I
> believe a lack of one repo’s activity shouldn’t be part of that judgement).
> >
> > Regards
> > -steve
> >
> >
> > On 9/21/16, 2:08 PM, "Davanum Srinivas" <davanum at gmail.com<mailto:davanum at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Jakub,
> >
> > Please see below.
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Jakub Pavlik <
> jakub.pavlik at tcpcloud.eu<mailto:jakub.pavlik at tcpcloud.eu>> wrote:
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > it took us 2 years of hard working to get these official.
> OpenStack-Salt is
> > > now used by around 40 production deployments and it is focused
> very on
> > > operation and popularity is growing. You are removing the project
> week after
> > > one of top contributor announced that they will use that as part of
> > > solution. We made a mistakes, however I do not think that is
> reason to
> > > remove us. I do no think that quality of the project is measured
> like this.
> > > Our PTL got ill and did not do properly his job for last 3 weeks,
> but this
> > > can happen anybody.
> > >
> > > It is up to you. If you think that we are useless for community,
> then
> > > remove us and we will have to continue outside of this community.
> However
> > > growing successful use cases will not be under official openstack
> community,
> > > which makes my feeling bad.
> >
> > Data points so far are:
> > 1. No response during Barcelona planning for rooms
> > 2. Lack of candidates for PTL election
> > 3. No activity in the releases/ repository hence no entries in
> > https://releases.openstack.org/
> > 4. Meetings are not so regular?
> > http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_salt/2016/
> (supposed
> > to be weekly)
> > 5. Is the specs repo really active?
> > http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/openstack-salt-specs/ is the
> > work being done elsewhere?
> > 6. Is there an effort to add stuff to the CI jobs running on
> openstack
> > infrastructure? (can't seem to find much
> > http://codesearch.openstack.org/?q=salt&i=nope&files=zuul%<http://codesearch.openstack.org/?q=salt&i=nope&files=zuul%25>
> 2Flayout.yaml&repos=project-config)
> >
> > I'll stop here and switch to #openstack-salt channel to help work you
> > all through if there is a consensus/willingness from the
> > openstack-salt team that there's significant work to be done. If you
> > think you are better off not on the governance, that would be your
> > call as well.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Dims
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Jakub
> > >
> > >
> > > On 21.9.2016 21:03, Doug Hellmann wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Excerpts from Filip Pytloun's message of 2016-09-21 20:36:42
> +0200:
> > >>>
> > >>> On 2016/09/21 13:23, Doug Hellmann wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The idea of splitting the contributor list comes up pretty
> regularly
> > >>>> and we rehash the same suggestions each time. Given that what
> we
> > >>>> have now worked fine for 57 of the 59 offical teams (the Astara
> > >>>> team knew in advance it would not have a PTL running, and Piet
> had
> > >>>> some sort of technical issue submitting his candidacy for the UX
> > >>>> team), I'm not yet convinced that we need to make large-scale
> changes
> > >>>> to our community communication standard practices in support of
> the
> > >>>> 2 remaining teams.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> That's not to say that the system we have now is perfect, but we
> > >>>> can't realistically support multiple systems at the same time.
> We
> > >>>> need everyone to use the same system, otherwise we have (even
> more)
> > >>>> fragmented communication. So, we either need everyone to agree
> to
> > >>>> some new system and then have people step forward to implement
> it,
> > >>>> or we need to all agree to do our best to use the system we have
> > >>>> in place now.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think it may work as is (with proper mail filters), but as
> someone
> > >>> already
> > >>> mentioned in this thread it would be better to have someone more
> > >>> experienced
> > >>> in Openstack community projects as a core team member or PTL to
> catch all
> > >>> these things otherwise it may happen that inexperienced PTL/team
> just
> > >>> miss
> > >>> something like now.
> > >>
> > >> If the team needs help, please ask for it. We should be able to
> find
> > >> someone to do a little mentoring and provide some guidance.
> > >>
> > >>> Still I don't think it's such a big issue to just fire project
> from Big
> > >>> Tent -
> > >>> who will benefit from that? Again someone already mentioned what
> will it
> > >>> mean
> > >>> for such team (loss of potencial developers, etc.).
> > >>> Moreover for teams who are actively working on project as it
> seems that
> > >>> both
> > >>> OpenStackSalt and Security teams do.
> > >>
> > >> Signing up to be a part of the big tent is not free. Membership
> comes
> > >> with expectations and obligations. Failing to meet those may be an
> > >> indication that the team isn't ready, or that membership is not a
> good
> > >> fit.
> > >>
> > >>> And I thought that real work on a project is our primary goal..
> this
> > >>> situation
> > >>> is like loosing job when I left dirty coffee cup at my workspace.
> > >>
> > >> I hope you consider team leadership and community participation to
> > >> be more important than your analogy implies.
> > >>
> > >> Doug
> > >>
> > >>>> Did your release liaison follow the instructions to make that
> happen?
> > >>>> http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/releases/tree/
> README.rst
> > >>>
> > >>> That seems to be the reason. There was new release planned with
> support
> > >>> for
> > >>> containerized deployment which would follow that guide (as first
> releases
> > >>> were
> > >>> done during/shortly after openstack-salt move to Big Tent).
> > >>> As mentioned above - more experienced PTL would be helpful here
> and we
> > >>> are
> > >>> currently talking with people who could fit that position.
> > >>>
> > >>>>>> I see no emails tagged with [salt] on the mailing list since
> March of
> > >>>>>> this year, aside from this thread. Are you using a different
> communication
> > >>>>>> channel for team coordination? You mention IRC, but how are
> new contributors
> > >>>>>> expected to find you?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Yes, we are using openstack-salt channel and openstack
> meetings over
> > >>>>> IRC. This channel is mentioned eg. in readme here [1] and
> community
> > >>>>> meetings page [2] which are on weekly basis (logs [3]).
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> We also had a couple of people comming to team IRC talking to
> us about
> > >>>>> project
> > >>>>> so I believe they can find the way to contact us even without
> our heavy
> > >>>>> activity at openstack-dev (which should be better as I
> admitted).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> That works great for folks in your timezones. It's less useful
> for
> > >>>> anyone who isn't around at the same time as you, which is one
> reason
> > >>>> our community emphasizes using email communications. Email gives
> > >>>> you asynchronous discussions for timezone coverage, allows folks
> > >>>> who are traveling or off work for a period to catch up on and
> > >>>> participate in discussions later, etc.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> [1] https://github.com/openstack/openstack-salt
> > >>>>> [2] https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/openstack-salt
> > >>>>> [3] http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_salt/
> 2016/
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Of course I don't want to excuse our fault. In case it's not
> too
> > >>>>>>> late,
> > >>>>>>> we will try to be more active in mailing lists like
> openstack-dev and
> > >>>>>>> not miss such important events next time.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> [1] http://stackalytics.com/?module=openstacksalt-group
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> -Filip
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Thierry Carrez
> > >>>>>>> <thierry at openstack.org<mailto:thierry at openstack.org>>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> As announced previously[1][2], there were no PTL candidates
> within
> > >>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>> election deadline for a number of official OpenStack
> project teams:
> > >>>>>>>> Astara, UX, OpenStackSalt and Security.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> In the Astara case, the current team working on it would
> like to
> > >>>>>>>> abandon
> > >>>>>>>> the project (and let it be available for any new team who
> wishes to
> > >>>>>>>> take
> > >>>>>>>> it away). A change should be proposed really soon now to go
> in that
> > >>>>>>>> direction.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> In the UX case, the current PTL (Piet Kruithof) very quickly
> > >>>>>>>> reacted,
> > >>>>>>>> explained his error and asked to be considered for the
> position for
> > >>>>>>>> Ocata. The TC will officialize his nomination at the next
> meeting,
> > >>>>>>>> together with the newly elected PTLs.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> That leaves us with OpenStackSalt and Security, where
> nobody reacted
> > >>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>> the announcement that we are missing PTL candidates. That
> points to
> > >>>>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>> real disconnect between those teams and the rest of the
> community.
> > >>>>>>>> Even
> > >>>>>>>> if you didn't have the election schedule in mind, it was
> pretty hard
> > >>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>> miss all the PTL nominations in the email last week.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> The majority of TC members present at the meeting yesterday
> > >>>>>>>> suggested
> > >>>>>>>> that those project teams should be removed from the Big
> Tent, with
> > >>>>>>>> their
> > >>>>>>>> design summit space allocation slightly reduced to match
> that (and
> > >>>>>>>> make
> > >>>>>>>> room for other not-yet-official teams).
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> In the case of OpenStackSalt, it's a relatively new
> addition, and if
> > >>>>>>>> they get their act together they could probably be
> re-proposed in
> > >>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>> future. In the case of Security, it points to a more
> significant
> > >>>>>>>> disconnect (since it's not the first time the PTL misses the
> > >>>>>>>> nomination
> > >>>>>>>> call). We definitely still need to care about Security (and
> we also
> > >>>>>>>> need
> > >>>>>>>> a home for the Vulnerability Management team), but I think
> the
> > >>>>>>>> "Security
> > >>>>>>>> team" acts more like a workgroup than as an official
> project team,
> > >>>>>>>> as
> > >>>>>>>> evidenced by the fact that nobody in that team reacted to
> the lack
> > >>>>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>>> PTL nomination, or the announcement that the team missed
> the bus.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> The suggested way forward there would be to remove the
> "Security
> > >>>>>>>> project
> > >>>>>>>> team", have the Vulnerability Management Team file to be
> its own
> > >>>>>>>> official project team (in the same vein as the stable
> maintenance
> > >>>>>>>> team),
> > >>>>>>>> and have Security be just a workgroup rather than a project
> team.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Thoughts, comments ?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> [1]
> > >>>>>>>> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-
> > >>>>>>>> September/103904.html
> > >>>>>>>> [2]
> > >>>>>>>> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-
> > >>>>>>>> September/103939.html
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> ______________________________
> ____________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> > >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
> > >>>>>>>> OpenStack-dev-request at lists.openstack.org<mailto:OpenStack-dev-request at lists.openstack.org>?subject:
> unsubscribe
> > >>>>>>>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/
> openstack-dev
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
> ______________
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> > >>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
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> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
> ______________
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> > >>>>
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> openstack-dev
> > >>
> > >> ____________________________________________________________
> ______________
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> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jakub Pavlik
> > > CTO
> > >
> > > [tcp ◕ cloud]
> > >
> > > +420 602 177 027
> > > jakub.pavlik at tcpcloud.eu<mailto:jakub.pavlik at tcpcloud.eu>
> > >
> > > tcp cloud a.s.
> > > Thamova 16
> > > 186 00 Praha 8 - Karlin
> > > Czech republic
> > > http://tcpcloud.eu
> > > http://opentcpcloud.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> ______________
> > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas :: https://twitter.com/dims
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> ______________
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> >
> >
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> --
> Davanum Srinivas :: https://twitter.com/dims
>
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