[openstack-dev] [TripleO][Kolla][Heat][Higgins][Magnum][Kuryr] Gap analysis: Heat as a k8s orchestrator

Fox, Kevin M Kevin.Fox at pnnl.gov
Fri May 27 23:51:26 UTC 2016

Hi Zane,

I've been working on the k8s side of the equation right now...

See these two PR's:

I'm still hopeful these can make k8s 1.3 as experimental plugins. There is keystone username/password auth support in 1.2 & 1.3, but it is unsuitable for heat usage. It also does not support authorization at all.

After these patches are in, heat, horizon, and higgins should be able to use the k8s api. I believe they should be complete enough for testing now though, if you want to build it yourself.

There also will need to be a small patch to magnum to set the right flags to bind the deployed k8s to the local cloud if you want to use magnum to deploy.

After the patches are in, I was thinking about taking a stab at a heat resource for deployments, but if you can get to it before I can, that would be great too. :)

From: Zane Bitter [zbitter at redhat.com]
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 3:30 PM
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List
Subject: [openstack-dev] [TripleO][Kolla][Heat][Higgins][Magnum][Kuryr] Gap analysis: Heat as a k8s orchestrator

I spent a bit of time exploring the idea of using Heat as an external
orchestration layer on top of Kubernetes - specifically in the case of
TripleO controller nodes but I think it could be more generally useful
too - but eventually came to the conclusion it doesn't work yet, and
probably won't for a while. Nevertheless, I think it's helpful to
document a bit to help other people avoid going down the same path, and
also to help us focus on working toward the point where it _is_
possible, since I think there are other contexts where it would be
useful too.

We tend to refer to Kubernetes as a "Container Orchestration Engine" but
it does not actually do any orchestration, unless you count just
starting everything at roughly the same time as 'orchestration'. Which I
wouldn't. You generally handle any orchestration requirements between
services within the containers themselves, possibly using external
services like etcd to co-ordinate. (The Kubernetes project refer to this
as "choreography", and explicitly disclaim any attempt at orchestration.)

What Kubernetes *does* do is more like an actively-managed version of
Heat's SoftwareDeploymentGroup (emphasis on the _Group_). Brief recap:
SoftwareDeploymentGroup is a type of ResourceGroup; you give it a map of
resource names to server UUIDs and it creates a SoftwareDeployment for
each server. You have to generate the list of servers somehow to give it
(the easiest way is to obtain it from the output of another
ResourceGroup containing the servers). If e.g. a server goes down you
have to detect that externally, and trigger a Heat update that removes
it from the templates, redeploys a replacement server, and regenerates
the server list before a replacement SoftwareDeployment is created. In
constrast, Kubernetes is running on a cluster of servers, can use rules
to determine where to run containers, and can very quickly redeploy
without external intervention in response to a server or container
falling over. (It also does rolling updates, which Heat can also do
albeit in a somewhat hacky way when it comes to SoftwareDeployments -
which we're planning to fix.)

So this seems like an opportunity: if the dependencies between services
could be encoded in Heat templates rather than baked into the containers
then we could use Heat as the orchestration layer following the
dependency-based style I outlined in [1]. (TripleO is already moving in
this direction with the way that composable-roles uses
SoftwareDeploymentGroups.) One caveat is that fully using this style
likely rules out for all practical purposes the current Pacemaker-based
HA solution. We'd need to move to a lighter-weight HA solution, but I
know that TripleO is considering that anyway.

What's more though, assuming this could be made to work for a Kubernetes
cluster, a couple of remappings in the Heat environment file should get
you an otherwise-equivalent single-node non-HA deployment basically for
free. That's particularly exciting to me because there are definitely
deployments of TripleO that need HA clustering and deployments that
don't and which wouldn't want to pay the complexity cost of running
Kubernetes when they don't make any real use of it.

So you'd have a Heat resource type for the controller cluster that maps
to either an OS::Nova::Server or (the equivalent of) an OS::Magnum::Bay,
and a bunch of software deployments that map to either a
OS::Heat::SoftwareDeployment that calls (I assume) docker-compose
directly or a Kubernetes Pod resource to be named later.

The first obstacle is that we'd need that Kubernetes Pod resource in
Heat. Currently there is no such resource type, and the OpenStack API
that would be expected to provide that API (Magnum's /container
endpoint) is being deprecated, so that's not a long-term solution.[2]
Some folks from the Magnum community may or may not be working on a
separate project (which may or may not be called Higgins) to do that.
It'd be some time away though.

An alternative, though not a good one, would be to create a Kubernetes
resource type in Heat that has the credentials passed in somehow. I'm
very against that though. Heat is just not good at handling credentials
other than Keystone ones. We haven't ever created a resource type like
this before, except for the Docker one in /contrib that serves as a
prime example of what *not* to do. And if it doesn't make sense to wrap
an OpenStack API around this then IMO it isn't going to make any more
sense to wrap a Heat resource around it.

A third option might be a SoftwareDeployment, possibly on one of the
controller nodes themselves, that calls the k8s client. (We could create
a software deployment hook to make this easy.) That would suffer from
all of the same issues that TripleO currently has about having to choose
a server on which to deploy though.

The secondary obstacle is networking. TripleO has some pretty
complicated networking requirements (specifically network isolation for
the various services) that for now can't be supported when deploying a
cluster with Magnum. The Kuryr project is working on improved networking
for Magnum, but I don't know whether this is a use-case that would be

There's also the issue that IIUC Magnum operates its Neutron L3 agents
in such a way that connectivity to the user nodes is guaranteed only if
Magnum itself is running in an HA cloud. This is a problematic
assumption in general, but it's particularly problematic in the case of
the TripleO *undercloud*, which is not HA and which we very much do not
want to be in the networking path for the overcloud controller nodes.
Again, I don't know if this will be resolved by Kuryr or when.

Magnum does offer the option to pass a custom template, and I assume
that would allow us to set up the networking the way we want it.
However, TripleO uses all kinds of tricks with the environment and
parameters, so there'd quite likely need to be some enhancements to both
Heat (in order to access the current environment from within a template)
and Magnum (to pass an environment along with the template) to support that.

At that point it's a legitimate question to ask what exactly Magnum is
buying us if TripleO has to maintain its own Kubernetes deployment
templates anyway. I can think of only two things: an easier transition
later if we do believe that the networking stuff will be resolved, and
the /containers API. And the /containers API is being deprecated.

In that sense, the Magnum/Higgins split could be a good thing for the
Heat+Kubernetes use case in the long term - if we had a
Keystone-authenticated API that can allow Heat to make use of any k8s
cluster, not just those deployed via Magnum, then Magnum could be cut
out of the loop in those cases where networking issues preclude its use.

In the short term, though, there seems to be a number of obstacles.
Perhaps some of the folks involved in the relevant projects could
comment on when/if those are likely to be resolved.



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