[openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

John Griffith john.griffith8 at gmail.com
Tue Jan 13 17:54:13 UTC 2015

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Kuvaja, Erno <kuvaja at hp.com> wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dave Walker [mailto:email at daviey.com]
>> Sent: 13 January 2015 15:10
>> To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
>> On 13 January 2015 at 12:32, Kuvaja, Erno <kuvaja at hp.com> wrote:
>> > I'm heavily against the public logging to the level that I will just leave the
>> channel if that will be enabled. My point is not foul language and I do
>> understand that there could be some benefits out of it. Personally I think we
>> have enough tracked public communication means like ask.openstack.org
>> and the mailing lists. IRC is and has always been real time communications
>> with defined audience.
>> >
>> > I think the major benefits of this defined audience are:
>> > 1) One does not need to express themselves in a way that is for public. (
>> Misunderstandings can be corrected on the fly if needed. ) There is no need
>> to explain to anyone reading the logs what you actually meant during the
>> conversation month ago.
>> > 2) there is level of confidentiality within that defined audience. (
>> > For example someone not familiar with the processes thinks they have
>> > found security vulnerability and comes to the IRC-channel to ask
>> > second opinion. Those details are not public and that bug can still be
>> > raised and dealt properly. Once the discussion is logged and the logs
>> > are publicly available the details are publicly available as well. )
>> > 3) That defined audience does not usually limit content. I have no problem
>> to throw my e-mail address, phone number etc. into the channel, I would not
>> yell them out publicly.
>> >
>> > For me personally the last point is the biggest problem, professionally the
>> second is major concern. I have been using IRC for so long time that I'm not
>> willing to take the risk I can't filter myself on my regular channels. Meetings
>> are different story as there it is defined time and at least I'm on meeting
>> mode that time knowing it will be publicly logged.
>> >
>> > The channels are not locked so anyone can keep a client online and log it
>> for themselves if they feel need for it and lots of people do so. There is just
>> that big barrier having it within the defined group you can see on the channel
>> versus public to anyone.
>> >
>> > As opposed to Cindy's original statement of not wanting to be available off-
>> hours, that's solved already: you can set your client to away or not respond.
>> It's really common on any IRC network that nick is online while user is not or
>> is ignoring that real time outreach by personal preference. No-one
>> will/should take that personally or offensive. Not having bouncer/shell to run
>> your client is as well personal preference, I doubt anyone can claim they
>> could not do it with the options available nowadays.
>> >
>> >  - Erno (jokke_) Kuvaja
>> Hi,
>> I think these concerns are more based around fear, than any real merit.  I
>> would suggest that any IRC communication should be treated as public, and
>> therefore the idea of bouncing around personal contacts details is pretty
>> poor personal security.  If this is required, then using private messages would
>> seem to be perfectly suitable.
>> A user can join any #openstack-* channel, and not necessarily be a friend of
>> the project.  The concerns about security issues should be treated as if they
>> have already become public.
>> It seems that Openstack currently has around 40 non-meeting channels
>> logged[0] and contrasting with the Ubuntu project, there are some 350 public
>> logged channels[1] - with the logs going back to 2004.  This has caused little
>> issue over the years.
>> It would seem logical to introduce project-wide irc logging IMO.  I
>> *have* found it useful to search through archives of projects, and find it
>> frustrating when this data is not available.
>> I really struggle with the idea that contributors of a developer channel do not
>> consider themselves to be talking in a public forum, which to me - is the same
>> as being logged.  Without this mindset, the channel (and project?) merely
>> becomes a cabal developers area.
>> [0] http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/
>> [1] http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/01/01/
>> --
>> Kind Regards,
>> Dave Walker
> I do not have a problem to tell my phone number to someone at my local which is packed with people I do not know and they might hear it, I would have problem with my local if they would start recording all discussions in their premises and posting those publicly in the internet. I don't have even problem X people recording their visits there as long as it stays in their private collection, again same thing I would have problem them putting those records out public and I would try to ensure not being in their vicinity. Why should I/we/one treat IRC differently to any other public venue of discussion?
> - Erno
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I'd echo all the points made regarding "logging" shouldn't be a
problem; we're an Open Source project so the idea of our communication
being public making anybody nervous and not wanting to participate
seems really off to me.  Yes many of us setup our IRC clients to log,
some of us record everything anyway; most of all some of us like to go
back through logs to recap discussions that we had with others
regarding features, bug fixes etc.  It's a valuable thing to have IMO.

Also just to reiterate something that Sean pointed out that's bugged
me for a while.... proliferation of channels and what I view as
limited usage of openstack-dev.  Honestly I think it's more
detrimental to have all the silos of communication going on as opposed
to all of us actually working together in openstack-dev.  Sub channels
are great, but I think there are folks solving problems in their
specific project that likely have already been solved elsewhere.  Sure
there's conversations that belong in a sub-channel but honestly maybe
more should start in the dev channel and progress from there.  While
I'm at it, do meeting channels make sense for project meetings?  Seems
like if every project has an IRC channel they could/should probably
just have their meetings there (just make sure there's a meetbot

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