threat to freenode (where openstack irc hangs out)
https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20 https://p.haavard.me/407 I have no independent validation of this. Chris -- Chris Morgan <mihalis68@gmail.com>
On 2021-05-14 11:05:55 -0400 (-0400), Chris Morgan wrote:
https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20 https://p.haavard.me/407
I have no independent validation of this.
It seems like that may not be the whole story. Regardless, the infra team have registered a small foothold of copies of our critical channels on OFTC years ago, and have always considered that a reasonable place to relocate in the event something happens to Freenode which makes it no longer suitable. Letting people know to switch the IRC server name in their clients and updating lots of documentation mentioning Freenode would be the hardest part, honestly. -- Jeremy Stanley
If the situation doesn't sort itself out, perhaps a logical course of action is to create a CNAME record, and have something like irc.openinfra.dev moving forward, That way the community could move again without updating documentation... at least past the very first mass-doc update. On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 8:17 AM Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> wrote:
On 2021-05-14 11:05:55 -0400 (-0400), Chris Morgan wrote:
https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20 https://p.haavard.me/407
I have no independent validation of this.
It seems like that may not be the whole story. Regardless, the infra team have registered a small foothold of copies of our critical channels on OFTC years ago, and have always considered that a reasonable place to relocate in the event something happens to Freenode which makes it no longer suitable. Letting people know to switch the IRC server name in their clients and updating lots of documentation mentioning Freenode would be the hardest part, honestly. -- Jeremy Stanley
On 2021-05-17 06:08:20 -0700 (-0700), Julia Kreger wrote:
If the situation doesn't sort itself out, perhaps a logical course of action is to create a CNAME record, and have something like irc.openinfra.dev moving forward, That way the community could move again without updating documentation... at least past the very first mass-doc update. [...]
Yes, thanks for the reminder. I think we had previously agreed this would be a sensible way of engineering it. I suppose the last time it came up was in the pre-OpenDev days, but I still think having it be a general OpenDev signal as to where we're maintaining our service bots makes sense, and makes future relocations easier. This is what irc.gnome.org does, for example (it's currently a CNAME to irc.gimp.org). Some folks will probably still want to use the traditional IRC network names in their clients if they're joining channels for other communities which happen to exist on that same network, but for anyone who is only joining channels related to projects hosted in OpenDev I suppose it's a reasonable solution. If you're involved in multiple IRC-using communities on the same network, you're probably proficient enough with IRC and querying DNS to know what you're doing in that regard and work it out for yourself anyway. -- Jeremy Stanley
On 2021-05-17 14:12:42 +0000 (+0000), Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2021-05-17 06:08:20 -0700 (-0700), Julia Kreger wrote:
If the situation doesn't sort itself out, perhaps a logical course of action is to create a CNAME record, and have something like irc.openinfra.dev moving forward, That way the community could move again without updating documentation... at least past the very first mass-doc update. [...]
Yes, thanks for the reminder. I think we had previously agreed this would be a sensible way of engineering it. I suppose the last time it came up was in the pre-OpenDev days, but I still think having it be a general OpenDev signal as to where we're maintaining our service bots makes sense, and makes future relocations easier. This is what irc.gnome.org does, for example (it's currently a CNAME to irc.gimp.org). [...]
Though as dansmith correctly pointed out in #openstack-infra just now, this would break some IRC-over-SSL configurations (unless the CNAME could get added as a SubjectAltName in the server cert somehow, which would require us to negotiate that with the operators of the networks in question, making this a not particularly nimble solution). -- Jeremy Stanley
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 5:07 PM Chris Morgan <mihalis68@gmail.com> wrote:
https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20 https://p.haavard.me/407
The references seem gone. What were they about? -yoctozepto
On Mon, May 17, 2021, at 7:30 AM, Radosław Piliszek wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 5:07 PM Chris Morgan <mihalis68@gmail.com> wrote:
https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20 https://p.haavard.me/407
The references seem gone. What were they about?
It was a draft document that was not supposed to be exposed publicly, but web crawlers found it anyway. I didn't read the document, but the summary seemed to be that the author and a number of freenode maintainers/admins/not sure of the proper term were at one point considering quitting. This document was discovered and posted to hacker news. The document's author asserted on the hacker news thread that they had no intention of following through with those actions and that the document was a draft that should have never been publicly listed.
-yoctozepto
On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 4:43 PM Clark Boylan <cboylan@sapwetik.org> wrote:
On Mon, May 17, 2021, at 7:30 AM, Radosław Piliszek wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 5:07 PM Chris Morgan <mihalis68@gmail.com> wrote:
https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20 https://p.haavard.me/407
The references seem gone. What were they about?
It was a draft document that was not supposed to be exposed publicly, but web crawlers found it anyway. I didn't read the document, but the summary seemed to be that the author and a number of freenode maintainers/admins/not sure of the proper term were at one point considering quitting. This document was discovered and posted to hacker news. The document's author asserted on the hacker news thread that they had no intention of following through with those actions and that the document was a draft that should have never been publicly listed.
Thank you! -yoctozepto
Hello all, I think we shouldn't let this one die in silence. Apparently, new policies are being enforcing within Freenode and, if by mistake, a channel promotes another IRC network in their topic, they will be taken by freenode staff - meaning loss of rights, loss of ownership, and topic will be changed. that's not what we can call "foss supporting" anymore imho. (Though, apparently, this was due to some miscommunication - so long for the transparency, stability and so on.) Reading the «explanation» on both sides[1][2], as well as latest freenode communication[3], I'd rather go for the OFTC thing, since it's (really) independent of the whole thing. True freenode is (was?) a central player for FOSS communities. But with all the screaming around, it might get harder to stick with them. Though, right now, the current privacy policy[4] doesn't reflect any weird use of our data (that is, as of 2021-05-26, 08:30am CET). Maybe a false flag? We'll probably never really know, but checking that privacy policy and related contents evolution might provide a good hint. Some of the other communities I'm following have implemented a bridge bot, basically copy-pasting content from one network to another. That way, ppl could be on OFTC (or anywhere else where we have a foot on), while primary thing would stick to freenode (and thus allowing a clean migration)? My 2c ;). Cheers, C. [1] https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss [2] https://libera.chat/news/welcome-to-libera-chat [3] https://freenode.net/news/for-foss [4] https://freenode.net/policies On 5/14/21 5:05 PM, Chris Morgan wrote:
https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20 <https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20> https://p.haavard.me/407 <https://p.haavard.me/407>
I have no independent validation of this.
Chris
-- Chris Morgan <mihalis68@gmail.com <mailto:mihalis68@gmail.com>>
-- Cédric Jeanneret (He/Him/His) Sr. Software Engineer - OpenStack Platform Deployment Framework TC Red Hat EMEA https://www.redhat.com/
On Wed, 26 May 2021, 08:45 Cédric Jeanneret <cjeanner@redhat.com> wrote:
Hello all,
I think we shouldn't let this one die in silence. Apparently, new policies are being enforcing within Freenode and, if by mistake, a channel promotes another IRC network in their topic, they will be taken by freenode staff - meaning loss of rights, loss of ownership, and topic will be changed.
To be more specific, around 700 channels were just purged and moved to offtopic (double hash) namespace *just for having "libera" mentioned in its title.* It makes the case rather clear: Freenode is now indeed operated by hostile entity treating the once-popular communications platform as their own playground.
On Wed, 26 May 2021, 09:21 Patryk Jakuszew <patryk.jakuszew@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 May 2021, 08:45 Cédric Jeanneret <cjeanner@redhat.com> wrote:
Hello all,
I think we shouldn't let this one die in silence. Apparently, new policies are being enforcing within Freenode and, if by mistake, a channel promotes another IRC network in their topic, they will be taken by freenode staff - meaning loss of rights, loss of ownership, and topic will be changed.
To be more specific, around 700 channels were just purged and moved to offtopic (double hash) namespace *just for having "libera" mentioned in its title.*
Sorry, "purged" is an incorrect term. What I actually meant is that a bot entered each channel containing "libera" in its title, changed the topic to something like this: 05:02:55 freenodecom set the topic: This channel has moved to ##channelname. The topic is in violation of freenode policy: https://freenode.net/policies and then created a new ##-prefixed channel.
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 8:44 AM Cédric Jeanneret <cjeanner@redhat.com> wrote:
Hello all,
I think we shouldn't let this one die in silence. Apparently, new policies are being enforcing within Freenode and, if by mistake, a channel promotes another IRC network in their topic, they will be taken by freenode staff - meaning loss of rights, loss of ownership, and topic will be changed.
FYI #rdo fell victim to this and is now on Libera. Dmitry
that's not what we can call "foss supporting" anymore imho. (Though, apparently, this was due to some miscommunication - so long for the transparency, stability and so on.)
Reading the «explanation» on both sides[1][2], as well as latest freenode communication[3], I'd rather go for the OFTC thing, since it's (really) independent of the whole thing.
True freenode is (was?) a central player for FOSS communities. But with all the screaming around, it might get harder to stick with them.
Though, right now, the current privacy policy[4] doesn't reflect any weird use of our data (that is, as of 2021-05-26, 08:30am CET). Maybe a false flag? We'll probably never really know, but checking that privacy policy and related contents evolution might provide a good hint.
Some of the other communities I'm following have implemented a bridge bot, basically copy-pasting content from one network to another. That way, ppl could be on OFTC (or anywhere else where we have a foot on), while primary thing would stick to freenode (and thus allowing a clean migration)?
My 2c ;).
Cheers,
C.
[1] https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss [2] https://libera.chat/news/welcome-to-libera-chat [3] https://freenode.net/news/for-foss [4] https://freenode.net/policies
On 5/14/21 5:05 PM, Chris Morgan wrote:
https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20 <https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20> https://p.haavard.me/407 <https://p.haavard.me/407>
I have no independent validation of this.
Chris
-- Chris Morgan <mihalis68@gmail.com <mailto:mihalis68@gmail.com>>
-- Cédric Jeanneret (He/Him/His) Sr. Software Engineer - OpenStack Platform Deployment Framework TC Red Hat EMEA https://www.redhat.com/
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
Yup. I think it’s time to get out. We said we’d move if we’re running into a problem or changes happen. This is the case now. I’ve setup a small Google Meet for today to discuss things because quite honestly, I don’t think the IRC is viable for this discussion in terms of how urgent this needs to be done and the potential for interruption. The meeting is in 3 hours exactly. OpenStack network migration Wednesday, May 26 · 10:30–11 AM EST Google Meet joining info Video call link: https://meet.google.com/xqw-zkhw-wak Or dial: +1 226-213-8281 PIN: 5116612309845 More phone numbers: https://tel.meet/xqw-zkhw-wak?pin=5116612309845 I would appreciate if our community joined so we can get an actionable plan as quickly as possible. Thanks for everyone’s comments and I hope that we’re going to have a lot of hands to help us, because there will be a non trivial amount of work and a few decisions to be made. I’ll add an etherpad for this discussion shortly. On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 7:20 AM Dmitry Tantsur <dtantsur@redhat.com> wrote:
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 8:44 AM Cédric Jeanneret <cjeanner@redhat.com> wrote:
Hello all,
I think we shouldn't let this one die in silence. Apparently, new policies are being enforcing within Freenode and, if by mistake, a channel promotes another IRC network in their topic, they will be taken by freenode staff - meaning loss of rights, loss of ownership, and topic will be changed.
FYI #rdo fell victim to this and is now on Libera.
Dmitry
that's not what we can call "foss supporting" anymore imho. (Though, apparently, this was due to some miscommunication - so long for the transparency, stability and so on.)
Reading the «explanation» on both sides[1][2], as well as latest freenode communication[3], I'd rather go for the OFTC thing, since it's (really) independent of the whole thing.
True freenode is (was?) a central player for FOSS communities. But with all the screaming around, it might get harder to stick with them.
Though, right now, the current privacy policy[4] doesn't reflect any weird use of our data (that is, as of 2021-05-26, 08:30am CET). Maybe a false flag? We'll probably never really know, but checking that privacy policy and related contents evolution might provide a good hint.
Some of the other communities I'm following have implemented a bridge bot, basically copy-pasting content from one network to another. That way, ppl could be on OFTC (or anywhere else where we have a foot on), while primary thing would stick to freenode (and thus allowing a clean migration)?
My 2c ;).
Cheers,
C.
[1] https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss [2] https://libera.chat/news/welcome-to-libera-chat [3] https://freenode.net/news/for-foss [4] https://freenode.net/policies
On 5/14/21 5:05 PM, Chris Morgan wrote:
https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20 <https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20> https://p.haavard.me/407 <https://p.haavard.me/407>
I have no independent validation of this.
Chris
-- Chris Morgan <mihalis68@gmail.com <mailto:mihalis68@gmail.com>>
-- Cédric Jeanneret (He/Him/His) Sr. Software Engineer - OpenStack Platform Deployment Framework TC Red Hat EMEA https://www.redhat.com/
-- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill
-- Mohammed Naser VEXXHOST, Inc.
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 1:37 PM Mohammed Naser <mnaser@vexxhost.com> wrote:
Yup. I think it’s time to get out. We said we’d move if we’re running into a problem or changes happen. This is the case now.
Thank you. Finally some backup from another TC member.
I’ve setup a small Google Meet for today to discuss things because quite honestly, I don’t think the IRC is viable for this discussion in terms of how urgent this needs to be done and the potential for interruption. The meeting is in 3 hours exactly.
OpenStack network migration Wednesday, May 26 · 10:30–11 AM EST Google Meet joining info Video call link: https://meet.google.com/xqw-zkhw-wak Or dial: +1 226-213-8281 PIN: 5116612309845 More phone numbers: https://tel.meet/xqw-zkhw-wak?pin=5116612309845
I'm available. BTW, this is 14:30-15 UTC -yoctozepto
Related article on LWN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27289071 Discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27289071 On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 8:12 AM Chris Morgan <mihalis68@gmail.com> wrote:
https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20 https://p.haavard.me/407
I have no independent validation of this.
Chris
-- Chris Morgan <mihalis68@gmail.com>
"I think we shouldn't let this one die in silence." Just for completeness, note that this discussion came back to the openstack-discuss mailing list with the subject "Freenode and libera.chat" with a lot of discussion and then a few other email threads, so the issue was not being ignored, it just sadly fragmented across multiple threads. Chris On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 10:52 AM John Villalovos <openstack.org@sodarock.com> wrote:
Related article on LWN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27289071
Discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27289071
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 8:12 AM Chris Morgan <mihalis68@gmail.com> wrote:
https://twitter.com/dmsimard/status/1393203159770804225?s=20 https://p.haavard.me/407
I have no independent validation of this.
Chris
-- Chris Morgan <mihalis68@gmail.com>
-- Chris Morgan <mihalis68@gmail.com>
participants (10)
-
Chris Morgan
-
Clark Boylan
-
Cédric Jeanneret
-
Dmitry Tantsur
-
Jeremy Stanley
-
John Villalovos
-
Julia Kreger
-
Mohammed Naser
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Patryk Jakuszew
-
Radosław Piliszek