[openstack-dev] [magnum][app-catalog][all] Build unified abstraction for all COEs

Keith Bray keith.bray at RACKSPACE.COM
Thu Apr 21 20:10:19 UTC 2016

If you don¹t want a user to have to choose a COE, can¹t we just offer an
option for the operator to mark a particular COE as the ³Default COE² that
could be defaulted to if one isn¹t specified in the Bay create call?  If
the operator didn¹t specify a default one, then the CLI/UI must submit one
in the bay create call otherwise it would fail.

Kevin, can you clarify Why you have to write scripts to deploy a container
to the COE?   It can be made easy for the user to extract all the
runtime/env vars needed for a user to just do ³docker run Š²  and poof,
container running on Swarm on a Magnum bay.  Can you help me understand
the script part of it?   I don¹t believe container users want an
abstraction between them and their COE CLIŠ but, what I believe isn¹t
important.  What I do think is important is that we not require OpenStack
operators to run that abstraction layer to be running a ³magnum compliant²
service.  It should either be an ³optional² API add-on or a separate API
or separate project.  If some folks want an abstraction layer, then great,
feel free to build it and even propose it under the OpenStack ecosystem..
But, that abstraction would be a ³proxy API" over the COEs, and doesn¹t
need to be part of Magnum¹s offering, as it would be targeted at the COE
interactions and not the bay interactions (which is where Magnum scope is
best focused).  I don¹t think Magnum should play in both these distinct
domains (Bay interaction vs. COE interaction).  The former (bay
interaction) is an infrastructure cloud thing (fits well with OpenStack),
the latter (COE interaction) is an obfuscation of emerging technologies,
which gets in to the Trap that Adrian mentioned.  The abstraction layer
API will forever and always be drastically behind in trying to keep up
with the COE innovation.

In summary, an abstraction over the COEs would be best served as a
different effort.  Magnum would be best focused on bay interactions and
should not try to pick a COE winner or require an operator to run a
lowest-common-demonitor API abstraction.

Thanks for listening to my soap-box.

On 4/21/16, 2:36 PM, "Fox, Kevin M" <Kevin.Fox at pnnl.gov> wrote:

>I agree with that, and thats why providing some bare minimum abstraction
>will help the users not have to choose a COE themselves. If we can't
>decide, why can they? If all they want to do is launch a container, they
>should be able to script up "magnum launch-container foo/bar:latest" and
>get one. That script can then be relied upon.
>Today, they have to write scripts to deploy to the specific COE they have
>chosen. If they chose Docker, and something better comes out, they have
>to go rewrite a bunch of stuff to target the new, better thing. This puts
>a lot of work on others.
>Do I think we can provide an abstraction that prevents them from ever
>having to rewrite scripts? No. There are a lot of features in the COE
>world in flight right now and we dont want to solidify an api around them
>yet. We shouldn't even try that. But can we cover a few common things
>now? Yeah.
>From: Adrian Otto [adrian.otto at rackspace.com]
>Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 7:32 AM
>To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
>Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [magnum][app-catalog][all] Build unified
>abstraction for all COEs
>> On Apr 20, 2016, at 2:49 PM, Joshua Harlow <harlowja at fastmail.com>
>> Thierry Carrez wrote:
>>> Adrian Otto wrote:
>>>> This pursuit is a trap. Magnum should focus on making native container
>>>> APIs available. We should not wrap APIs with leaky abstractions. The
>>>> lowest common denominator of all COEs is an remarkably low value API
>>>> that adds considerable complexity to Magnum that will not
>>>> strategically advance OpenStack. If we instead focus our effort on
>>>> making the COEs work better on OpenStack, that would be a winning
>>>> strategy. Support and compliment our various COE ecosystems.
>> So I'm all for avoiding 'wrap APIs with leaky abstractions' and 'making
>> COEs work better on OpenStack' but I do dislike the part about COEs
>>(plural) because it is once again the old non-opinionated problem that
>>we (as a community) suffer from.
>> Just my 2 cents, but I'd almost rather we pick one COE and integrate
>>that deeply/tightly with openstack, and yes if this causes some part of
>>the openstack community to be annoyed, meh, to bad. Sadly I have a
>>feeling we are hurting ourselves by continuing to try to be everything
>>and not picking anything (it's a general thing we, as a group, seem to
>>be good at, lol). I mean I get the reason to just support all the
>>things, but it feels like we as a community could just pick something,
>>work together on figuring out how to pick one, using all these bright
>>leaders we have to help make that possible (and yes this might piss some
>>people off, to bad). Then work toward making that something great and
>>move onŠ
>The key issue preventing the selection of only one COE is that this area
>is moving very quickly. If we would have decided what to pick at the time
>the Magnum idea was created, we would have selected Docker. If you look
>at it today, you might pick something else. A few months down the road,
>there may be yet another choice that is more compelling. The fact that a
>cloud operator can integrate services with OpenStack, and have the
>freedom to offer support for a selection of COE¹s is a form of insurance
>against the risk of picking the wrong one. Our compute service offers a
>choice of hypervisors, our block storage service offers a choice of
>storage hardware drivers, our networking service allows a choice of
>network drivers. Magnum is following the same pattern of choice that has
>made OpenStack compelling for a very diverse community. That design
>consideration was intentional.
>Over time, we can focus the majority of our effort on deep integration
>with COEs that users select the most. I¹m convinced it¹s still too early
>to bet the farm on just one choice.
>>> I'm with Adrian on that one. I've attended a lot of container-oriented
>>> conferences over the past year and my main takeaway is that this new
>>> crowd of potential users is not interested (at all) in an
>>> OpenStack-specific lowest common denominator API for COEs. They want to
>>> take advantage of the cool features in Kubernetes API or the
>>> of Mesos. They want to avoid caring about the infrastructure provider
>>> bit (and not deploy Mesos or Kubernetes themselves).
>>> Let's focus on the infrastructure provider bit -- that is what we do
>>> what the ecosystem wants us to provide.
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