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On 04/22/2011 05:41 AM, Soren Hansen wrote:
> 2011/4/21 Thomas Goirand <thomas at goirand.fr>:
>> On 04/19/2011 05:55 AM, Soren Hansen wrote:
>>> 2011/4/18 Thomas Goirand <thomas at goirand.fr>:
>>>> Can't you just pull each individual patches that you feel ok with?  Is
>>>> it simply not technically possible with bzr?
>>> Short answer: no. Longer answer: Of course it's possible to extract
>>> individual patches and apply them elsewhere, but it's tedious, manual
>>> and throws away history. We bzr users care deeply about history :)
>> I don't know bzr enough to be able to tell, but it seems like an area
>> of improvement. History, for me, is quite important.
>>
>> With Git, it's really easy to get a bunch of patches, select the one we
>> want, and reject others. To compete with Git, Bzr *must* be able to do
>> that, and allowing rebase and merge of patches in order to keep a clean,
>> readable, patch history.
> 
> Rebasing means ripping things out of their context and putting them
> somewhere else. It not only modifies, but it discards history. As much
> as you may want to alter history, a patch was written when it was
> written and in the context in which it was written. You can rebase all
> you want and make the patches appear in whatever order you please, but
> the true history remains the same: The patch was written in a different
> context at a different time. You are *discarding* the patch history when
> you rebase. There's no longer any way to see the revisions the patch
> went through. You're reducing your revision control system to a patch
> management system. Patch management systems don't care about history of
> your work. They care exclusively about the result: The patch that ends
> up being accepted.
> 
> There are several reasons why I strongly oppose this practice:
> 
> There's a lot of wisdom to be found in work that gets rejected, and for
> e.g. the Linux kernel, the only way you can see all the patch revisions
> that didn't get approved is by wading through mailing lists. I firmly
> believe this history belongs in the revision control system.  Example:
> Say I'm working on a change to the locking mechanism in a particular
> driver. I look at a similar driver to see how its done there and find
> that it looks needlessly complicated or defensive and I go and implement
> something simpler. Once submitted, it gets torn apart during review
> because there are things I didn't take into account. Had I had easy
> access to the rejected revisions of the same changes to the other
> driver, I could have seen that they tried the same approach and that it
> was changed for this or the other reason and avoided making the same
> mistakes.
> 
> There's no shame in writing a patch that doesn't get accepted in the
> first go.  Everyone does it.  Hiding this from the revision history just
> makes it more scary for new people to join in the fun because everyone
> else's work looks to always be perfect even though reality is much, much
> different.
> 
> I find the rebasing/cherry-picking practice even worse in the Linux
> kernel context due to the patch tagging used there. If I add a
> "Signed-off-by: Soren Hansen" to a patch and someone cherry picks that
> patch or moves it around as part of a rebase, my patch still shows up as
> "Signed-off-by: me" even though I've never signed off on the patch in
> its new context. I remember at one point I had a patch that added some
> security checks to the end of a function. It got rebased and it applied
> cleanly. It took a while before someone noticed that my patches didn't
> work anymore. It turned out that my changes were applied to the
> preceding function, because the two functions shared a bunch of
> boilerplate code at the end (the last 7 lines were actually completely
> identical), so the patch applied cleanly and bunch of other changes made
> it so that the line numbers in my patch now pointed to this other
> function. The problem here is that people were upset, and when they went
> and bisected they could see that I had made this change and signed off
> on it, and wondered what the heck I'd been thinking, and I can honestly
> say I don't blame them.  According to the revision control system, I
> signed off on this change in this context.  Except in the real world, I
> didn't.
> 
> Note that I don't mention git or bzr here at all. All of this could
> equally easily happen with bzr or git. Someone did write a rebase plugin
> for bzr, and I hate that with the fire of a thousand suns, too. Just
> because you're holding a gun aimed squarely at your foot, you don't
> *have* to pull the trigger.
> 
> Concretely speaking, if you just look at "bzr log"'s default output,
> you'll see a perfectly clean flow of the patches that ended up getting
> accepted. These merge revisions have their own, unique commit message
> that sums up and explains the change.  If you run "bzr log -n0", you'll
> see all the gory details of the work leading up to these patches.
> 
> I completely agree that bzr should have better mechanics for sharing
> working trees between different branches (the loom plugin does some of
> this, if you're interested). Apart for when I'm working on the Linux
> kernel, I've never really felt the need for it, but I understand that
> many people do.

I wasn't discussing rebasing and hiding trials and errors or even
rebasing, but cherry-picking things in a branch that we see fits, and
are ready for a merge. I globally don't agree with you on that point,
because I think it is important to be able to cherry-pick a topic patch,
for example when we need to backport a patch: it wouldn't be convenient
to have to go through a series of patch to do so, which why I think a
clean history is important. If there's a way to somehow "collapse" a few
patches together, then fine, but otherwise, it makes it really difficult
to cherry-pick for backporting. But that wasn't my point.

You rejected a bunch of patches globally because only a tiny portion of
it aren't ok (like man pages stubs which I though we could work on
later), which I believe isn't very convenient.

If I do the way you suggest, either I have to hold so many branches on
my local disk, which will soon give me headakes and are mistake prone,
or I have to stop working further on other patches until the previous
ones are accepted.

On 04/22/2011 06:36 AM, Soren Hansen wrote:
> All of these were done with a cold cache:
>
> It took 13.5 seconds to run "git diff".
> It took 15.2 seconds to run "bzr diff".
> Committing a one-line change with "git commit -a -m foo" took 15.8
seconds.
> Committing a one-line change with "bzr commit -m foo" took 16.3 seconds.
> Committing a one-line change with "git commit -m foo <filename>" took
> 15.8 seconds. (Not kidding!)
> Committing a one-line change with "git add <filename>; git commit -m
> foo" took 0.5 seconds.
> Committing a one-line change with "bzr commit -m foo <filename>" took
> 1.5 seconds.

IMHO, not really relevant. bzr intensively uses branches. Instead, try
to do:

git checkout -b new-soren-branch

This is pretty instant. Now do:

bzr branch trunk new-soren-branch

and wait for all files to copy ...

Thomas