[openstack-dev] [i18n] [nova] understanding log domain change - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/439500

Ihar Hrachyshka ihrachys at redhat.com
Mon Mar 6 17:16:17 UTC 2017

I have a question: why can't operators just switch to en_US to execute services?

Another question: what makes log messages so much different from API
responses? Couldn't you make the same argument that it's easier to
find a reason for a request failure if the error message is in
English? Should we then just stop translating any messages and say
English is the only OpenStack language we recommend?

I try to see what makes logs so much different from API error
messages, and why operators cannot pick the right language based on
their priorities.

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Ian Y. Choi <ianyrchoi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Doug Hellmann wrote on 3/7/2017 12:53 AM:
>> Excerpts from Sean Dague's message of 2017-03-06 09:06:18 -0500:
>>> On 03/06/2017 08:43 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
>>>> On 2017-03-06 14:03, Sean Dague  wrote:
>>>>> I'm trying to understand the implications of
>>>>> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/439500. And the comment in the linked
>>>>> email:
>>>>> ">> Yes, we decided some time ago to not translate the log files
>>>>> anymore and
>>>>>>> thus our tools do not handle them anymore - and in general, we remove
>>>>>>> these kind of files."
>>>>> Does that mean that all the _LE, _LI, _LW stuff in projects should be
>>>>> fully removed? Nova currently enforces those things are there -
>>>>> https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/e88dd0034b1b135d680dae3494597e295add9cfe/nova/hacking/checks.py#L314-L333
>>>>> and want to make sure our tools aren't making us do work that the i18n
>>>>> team is ignoring and throwing away.
>>>> Sean, this was removed as followup to:
>>>> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-i18n/2016-November/002574.html
>>>> Let me copy Ian as i18n PTL,
>>>> Andreas
>>> That all seems reasonable, and I'm happy to follow the i18n team's lead
>>> here. It is however a significant reversal of policy, and there is
>>> substantial code infrastructure in projects (like Nova) to support the
>>> old policy.
>>> So if this is new policy, a much wider dissemination of it would be
>>> welcomed, as it means we can purge this infrastructure from projects
>>> like Nova.
>>>      -Sean
>> Yes, we went to a great deal of trouble to enable log translations,
>> so I'm surprised to see it being dropped to quickly.  I don't
>> necessarily disagree with the decision, because I know translator
>> time is limited. But it would be nice to have the discussion here,
> +1 and for such discussions including openstack-i18n at lists.openstack.org
> mailing list would be also nice :)
> On Barcelona Design Summit, there were I18n contributor meetup and I18n team
> members discussed a lot.
> One of things was not to translate log-level strings for server projects.
> Note that such decision was made not because translator time is limited.
> Log messages are important to better identify which errors are being posed
> and most operators (+ developers)
> diagnose and start to solve error situations from the log messages.
> I18n team previously translated log messages a lot especially thanks to
> translation contribution from IBM. (AFAIK)
> However, after then, there have been some voices - why I18n team translated
> log messages?
> After listening to the voices in details, I18n team identified that the
> background of such voices was related with searching log messages on
> Internet.
> Searching English log messages on the Internet will retrieve more number of
> results than searching translated log messages on the Internet.
> Translating log messages now has two different point of views:
>  - Will be useful for OpenStack users to better understand log messages in
> details with translated log messages?
>  - Or will not be useful for OpenStack users because the original log
> messages will have better chance to find solutions who occurred the similar
> cases on the Internet?
> I18n team discussed with such point of views and on Barcelona Summit the
> latter point would be more important than the former point.
> Also, it would be just a point of view from PTL, but it is difficult for me
> to encourage to contribution translations which have such kind of
> controversy.
> Now I would like to listen again to not only developers, but also operators
> and translators - for log string translation.
> If someone thinks that the former point would be more important than the
> latter point, please share through this mailing list to reconsider the
> current decision.
> With many thanks,
> /Ian
>> instead of on a list most of the community isn't subscribed to, so
>> everyone involved can understand the reason for the change and so
>> the folks who asked for it originally can be included in the
>> conversation. As Sean points out, the policy change has a lot of
>> other implications about how logging is handled throughout the
>> applications.
>> Doug
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