[openstack-dev] [tc] supporting Go
flavio at redhat.com
Wed May 11 16:47:04 UTC 2016
On 11/05/16 12:09 +0000, Hayes, Graham wrote:
>On 10/05/2016 23:28, Gregory Haynes wrote:
>> On Tue, May 10, 2016, at 11:10 AM, Hayes, Graham wrote:
>>> On 10/05/2016 01:01, Gregory Haynes wrote:
>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2016, at 03:54 PM, John Dickinson wrote:
>>>>> On 9 May 2016, at 13:16, Gregory Haynes wrote:
>>>>>> This is a bit of an aside but I am sure others are wondering the same
>>>>>> thing - Is there some info (specs/etherpad/ML thread/etc) that has more
>>>>>> details on the bottleneck you're running in to? Given that the only
>>>>>> clients of your service are the public facing DNS servers I am now even
>>>>>> more surprised that you're hitting a python-inherent bottleneck.
>>>>> In Swift's case, the summary is that it's hard to write a network
>>>>> service in Python that shuffles data between the network and a block
>>>>> device (hard drive) and effectively utilizes all of the hardware
>>>>> available. So far, we've done very well by fork()'ing child processes,
>>>>> using cooperative concurrency via eventlet, and basic "write more
>>>>> efficient code" optimizations. However, when it comes down to it,
>>>>> managing all of the async operations across many cores and many drives
>>>>> is really hard, and there just isn't a good, efficient interface for
>>>>> that in Python.
>>>> This is a pretty big difference from hitting an unsolvable performance
>>>> issue in the language and instead is a case of language preference -
>>>> which is fine. I don't really want to fall in to the language-comparison
>>>> trap, but I think more detailed reasoning for why it is preferable over
>>>> python in specific use cases we have hit is good info to include /
>>>> discuss in the document you're drafting :). Essentially its a matter of
>>>> weighing the costs (which lots of people have hit on so I won't) with
>>>> the potential benefits and so unless the benefits are made very clear
>>>> (especially if those benefits are technical) its pretty hard to evaluate
>>>> There seemed to be an assumption in some of the designate rewrite posts
>>>> that there is some language-inherent performance issue causing a
>>>> bottleneck. If this does actually exist then that is a good reason for
>>>> rewriting in another language and is something that would be very useful
>>>> to clearly document as a case where we support this type of thing. I am
>>>> highly suspicious that this is the case though, but I am trying hard to
>>>> keep an open mind...
>>> The way this component works makes it quite difficult to make any major
>> OK, I'll bite.
>> I had a look at the code and there's a *ton* of low hanging fruit. I
>> decided to hack in some fixes or emulation of fixes to see whether I
>> could get any major improvements. Each test I ran 4 workers using
>> SO_REUSEPORT and timed doing 1k axfr's with 4 in parallel at a time and
>> recorded 5 timings. I also added these changes on top of one another in
>> the order they follow.
>Thanks for the analysis - any suggestions about how we can improve the
>current design are more than welcome .
>For this test, was it a single static zone? What size was it?
>> Base timings: [9.223, 9.030, 8.942, 8.657, 9.190]
>> Stop spawning a thread per request - there are a lot of ways to do this
>> better, but lets not even mess with that and just literally move the
>> thread spawning that happens per request because its a silly idea here:
>> [8.579, 8.732, 8.217, 8.522, 8.214] (almost 10% increase).
>> Stop instantiating oslo config object per request - this should be a no
>> brainer, we dont need to parse config inside of a request handler:
>> [8.544, 8.191, 8.318, 8.086] (a few more percent).
>> Now, the slightly less low hanging fruit - there are 3 round trips to
>> the database *every request*. This is where the vast majority of request
>> time is spent (not in python). I didn't actually implement a full on
>> cache (I just hacked around the db queries), but this should be trivial
>> to do since designate does know when to invalidate the cache data. Some
>> numbers on how much a warm cache will help:
>> Caching zone: [5.968, 5.942, 5.936, 5.797, 5.911]
>> Caching records: [3.450, 3.357, 3.364, 3.459, 3.352].
>> I would also expect real-world usage to be similar in that you should
>> only get 1 cache miss per worker per notify, and then all the other
>> public DNS servers would be getting cache hits. You could also remove
>> the cost of that 1 cache miss by pre-loading data in to the cache.
>I actually would expect the real world use of this to have most of the
>servers have a cache miss.
>We shuffle the order of the miniDNS servers sent out to the user facing
>DNS servers, so I would expect them to hit different minidns servers
>at nearly same time, and each of them try to generate the cache entry.
>For pre-loading - this could work, but I *really* don't like relying on
>a cache for one of the critical path components.
>> All said and done, I think that's almost a 3x speed increase with
>> minimal effort. So, can we stop saying that this has anything to do with
>> Python as a language and has everything to do with the algorithms being
>As I have said before - for us, the time spent : performance
>improvement ratio is just much higher (for our dev team at least) with
The problem I see here is that you're considering the time required for your
team to improve this situation without considering the impact this choice has on
the community and the time other members of the community need to spend on this.
I'm not saying you're doing this in bad faith, what I'm saying is that it's our
job to take care of non-project-specific aspects of these proposals.
The way I read your paragraph above is that it's easier to write a good/bad code
in Go that seems to be fater (better?) than the existing Python's code than
actually trying to fix the Python code, which we're already familiar with.
While I don't think the above is entirely wrong, it does strike me as a
surprise. AS Thierry said in another reply, I'm sure the Swift team has spent
quite sometime in improving the service's performance. Why stopping now?
>We saw a 50x improvement for small SOA queries, and ~ 10x improvement
>for 2000 record AXFR (without caching). The majority of your
>improvement came from caching, so I would imagine that would speed up
>the Go implementation as well.
>>> MiniDNS (the component) takes data and sends a zone transfer every time
>>> a recordset gets updated. That is a full (AXFR) zone transfer, so every
>>> record in the zone gets sent to each of the DNS servers that end users
>>> can hit.
>>> This can be quite a large number - ns[1-6].example.com. may well be
>>> tens or hundreds of servers behind anycast IPs and load balancers.
>> This design sounds like a *perfect* contender for caching. If you're
>> designing this properly its purely a question of how quickly can you
>> shove memory over the wire and as a result your choice in language will
>> have almost no effect - it'll be entirely an i/o bound problem.
>>> In many cases, internal zones (or even external zones) can be quite
>>> large - I have seen zones that are 200-300Mb. If a zone is high traffic
>>> (like say cloud.example.com. where a record is added / removed for
>>> each boot / destroy, or the reverse DNS zones for a cloud), there can
>>> be a lot of data sent out from this component.
>> Great! It's even more I/O bound, then.
>>> We are a small development team, and after looking at our options, and
>>> judging the amount of developer hours we had available, a different
>>> language was the route we decided on. I was going to go implement a few
>>> POCs and see what was most suitable.
>> This is what especially surprises me. The problems going on here are
>> purely algorithmic, and the thinking is that rather than solve those
>> issues the small amount of development time needs to be spent on a re
>> implementation which also is going to have costs the the wider community
>> due to the language choice.
>>> Golang was then being proposed as a new "blessed" language, and as it
>>> was a language that we had a pre-existing POC in we decided to keep
>>> this within the potential new list of languages.
>>> As I said before, we did not just randomly decide this. We have been
>>> talking about it for a while, and at this summit we dedicated an entire
>>> session to it, and decided to do it.
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