Open Stack

I'm heavily against the public logging to the level that I will just leave the channel if that will be enabled. My point is not foul language and I do understand that there could be some benefits out of it. Personally I think we have enough tracked public communication means like ask.openstack.org and the mailing lists. IRC is and has always been real time communications with defined audience. 

I think the major benefits of this defined audience are:
1) One does not need to express themselves in a way that is for public. ( Misunderstandings can be corrected on the fly if needed. ) There is no need to explain to anyone reading the logs what you actually meant during the conversation month ago.
2) there is level of confidentiality within that defined audience. ( For example someone not familiar with the processes thinks they have found security vulnerability and comes to the IRC-channel to ask second opinion. Those details are not public and that bug can still be raised and dealt properly. Once the discussion is logged and the logs are publicly available the details are publicly available as well. )
3) That defined audience does not usually limit content. I have no problem to throw my e-mail address, phone number etc. into the channel, I would not yell them out publicly.

For me personally the last point is the biggest problem, professionally the second is major concern. I have been using IRC for so long time that I'm not willing to take the risk I can't filter myself on my regular channels. Meetings are different story as there it is defined time and at least I'm on meeting mode that time knowing it will be publicly logged.

The channels are not locked so anyone can keep a client online and log it for themselves if they feel need for it and lots of people do so. There is just that big barrier having it within the defined group you can see on the channel versus public to anyone. 

As opposed to Cindy's original statement of not wanting to be available off-hours, that's solved already: you can set your client to away or not respond. It's really common on any IRC network that nick is online while user is not or is ignoring that real time outreach by personal preference. No-one will/should take that personally or offensive. Not having bouncer/shell to run your client is as well personal preference, I doubt anyone can claim they could not do it with the options available nowadays.

 - Erno (jokke_) Kuvaja

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nikhil Komawar [mailto:nikhil.komawar at RACKSPACE.COM]
> Sent: 05 January 2015 19:11
> To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
> 
> Thanks Cindy!
> 
> Glance cores, can you all please pitch in?
> 
> -Nikhil
> 
> ________________________________________
> From: Cindy Pallares [cpallares at redhat.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 12:28 PM
> To: openstack-dev at lists.openstack.org
> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
> 
> I've made a patch, we can vote on it there.
> 
> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145025/
> 
> 
> On 01/05/2015 11:15 AM, Amrith Kumar wrote:
> > I think logging the channel is a benefit even if, as Nikhil points out, it is not
> an official meeting. Trove logs both the #openstack-trove channel and the
> meetings when they occur. I have also had some conversations with other
> ATC's on #openstack-oslo and #openstack-security and have found that the
> eavesdrop logs at http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/ to be invaluable
> in either bug comments or code review comments.
> >
> > The IRC channel is an integral part of communicating within the OpenStack
> community. The use of foul language and other inappropriate behavior
> should be monitored not by admins but by other members of the community
> and called out just as one would call out similar behavior in a non-virtual work
> environment. I submit to you that profanity and inappropriate conduct in an
> IRC channel constitutes a hostile work environment just as much as it does in
> a non-virtual environment.
> >
> > Therefore I submit to you that there is no place for such behavior on an IRC
> channel irrespective of whether it is logged or not.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -amrith
> >
> > | -----Original Message-----
> > | From: Morgan Fainberg [mailto:morgan.fainberg at gmail.com]
> > | Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 11:58 AM
> > | To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> > | Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > | > On Jan 5, 2015, at 08:07, Nikhil Komawar
> > | > <nikhil.komawar at RACKSPACE.COM>
> > | wrote:
> > | >
> > | > Based on the feedback received, we would like to avoid logging on
> > | > the
> > | project channel. My take from the discussion was that it gives many
> > | a folks a feeling of informal platform to express their ideas freely
> > | in contrast to the meeting channels.
> > | >
> > | > However, at the same time I would like to point out that using
> > | > foul
> > | language in the open freenode channels is a bad practice. There are
> > | no admins monitoring our project channels however, those channels
> > | that are monitored have people kicked out on misbehavior.  The point
> > | being, "no logging" means freedom of thought for only the creative
> > | purposes; please do not take me any other way.
> > | >
> > | > Thanks,
> > | > -Nikhil
> > | >
> > |
> > | I just want to point out that keystone has logging enabled for our
> > | channel and I do not see it as a hamper to creative discussion / open
> discussion.
> > | The logging is definitely of value. Also a lot of people will
> > | locally log a given irc channel, which largely nets the same result.
> > |
> > | It is still not an official meeting, and we have heated debates at
> > | times, the logging let's us check back on things discussed outside
> > | of the official meetings. I do admit it is used less frequently than
> > | the meeting logs.
> > |
> > | --Morgan
> > |
> > | Sent via mobile
> > | > ________________________________________
> > | > From: Anita Kuno [anteaya at anteaya.info]
> > | > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 10:42 AM
> > | > To: openstack-dev at lists.openstack.org
> > | > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
> > | >
> > | >> On 01/05/2015 06:42 AM, Cindy Pallares wrote:
> > | >> Hi all,
> > | >>
> > | >> I would like to re-open the discussion on IRC logging for the
> > | >> glance channel. It was discussed on a meeting back in
> > | >> November[1], but it didn't seem to have a lot of input from the
> > | >> community and it was not discussed in the mailing list. A lot of
> > | >> information is exchanged through the channel and it isn't
> > | >> accessible for people who occasionally come into our channel from
> > | >> other projects, new contributors, and people who don't want to be
> > | >> reached off-hours or don't have bouncers. Logging our channel
> > | >> would  increase our community's transparency and make our
> > | >> development discussions publicly accessible to contributors in
> > | >> all time-zones and from other projects. It is very useful to look
> > | >> back on the logs for previous discussions or as well as to refer
> > | >> people to discussions or questions
> > | previously answered.
> > | >>
> > | >>
> > | >> --Cindy
> > | >>
> > | >> [1]
> > | >> http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2014/glance.2014-1
> > | >> 1-13
> > | >> -20.03.log.html
> > | >>
> > | >>
> > | >> _______________________________________________
> > | >> OpenStack-dev mailing list
> > | >> OpenStack-dev at lists.openstack.org
> > | >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
> > | > Hi Cindy:
> > | >
> > | > You might want to consider offering a patch (you can use this one
> > | > as an
> > | > example: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138965/2) and anyone
> > | > with a strong perspective can express themselves with a vote and
> comment.
> > | >
> > | > Thanks,
> > | > Anita.
> > | >
> > | > _______________________________________________
> > | > OpenStack-dev mailing list
> > | > OpenStack-dev at lists.openstack.org
> > | > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
> > | >
> > | > _______________________________________________
> > | > OpenStack-dev mailing list
> > | > OpenStack-dev at lists.openstack.org
> > | > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
> > |
> > | _______________________________________________
> > | OpenStack-dev mailing list
> > | OpenStack-dev at lists.openstack.org
> > | http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OpenStack-dev mailing list
> > OpenStack-dev at lists.openstack.org
> > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
> >
> 
> 
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