Open Stack

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015, at 09:32 AM, Sean Dague wrote:
> On 02/11/2015 09:02 AM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 08:13:05AM -0500, Sean Dague wrote:
> >> On 02/11/2015 05:52 AM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> >>>> ## Mailing List vs IRC Channel
> >>>>
> >>>> I get it, our mailing list is freaking busy, keeping up with it is
> >>>> hard and time consuming and that leads to lots of IRC discussions. I
> >>>> don't think there's anything wrong with that but I believe it's wrong
> >>>> to expect *EVERYONE* to be in the IRC channel when those discussions
> >>>> happen.
> >>>
> >>> Again, timezones. It is a physical impossibility for most people to
> >>> be on IRC for more than 8 hours a day, so that's only 1/3 of the day
> >>> that any signle person will likely be on IRC.  And no, expecting
> >>> people to have a permanently connected IRC proxy and then read the
> >>> other 16 hours of logs each morning is not a solution.
> >>>
> >>> Personally I've stopped joining IRC most the time regardless, because
> >>> I feel I am far more productive when I'm not being interrupted with
> >>> IRC pings every 20 minutes. There should be few things so urgent that
> >>> they can't be dealt with over email. Again because of our timezone
> >>> differences we should be wary of making important decisions in a
> >>> rush - anything remotely non-trivial should have at least a 24 hour
> >>> window to allow people on all timezones a chance to see the point
> >>> and join in discussion.
> >>
> >> IRC is mostly not about discussions, it's about discussion, context,
> >> team building, and trust. And it's a cross organization open forum for that.
> >>
> >> If core team members start dropping off external IRC where they are
> >> communicating across corporate boundaries, then the local tribal effects
> >> start taking over. You get people start talking about the upstream as
> >> "them". The moment we get into us vs. them, we've got a problem.
> >> Especially when the upstream project is "them".
> > 
> > It is perfectly possible to communicate effectively over email. Pretty
> > much every single other open source project I've ever contributed to
> > works almost exclusively over email without their being corporate "tribal
> > effects". OpenStack is really the exception here with its obsession on
> > using IRC for so much communication.
> 
> My experiences have been different. While a lot of projects mirrored the
> kernel process which was all mailing list, most of the projects I've
> worked on that haven't been written in C are far more IRC driven.
> 
> Every time I've had to address an issue with a non OpenStack python
> dependency, it's been IRC to get things done, not a mailing list. Most
> of these projects don't have mailing lists. A lot of people come to
> OpenStack from those sorts of project cultures. So I don't think
> OpenStack is an exception in Open Source.
> 
> It was the community norm when I showed up, so it's the norm that I take
> forward.
> 
> The alternative when I got started wasn't even that discussions were
> happening in open IRC, it was that they were happening via completely
> private back channels, often in physical hallways of individual
> companies. IRC was a ton more open than that for sure. And it was a
> transition that people used to physical conversations could make easier
> than moving to email.
> 
> >> So while I agree, I'd personally get a ton more done if I didn't make
> >> myself available to answer questions or help sort out misunderstandings
> >> people were having with things I'm an expert in, doing so would
> >> definitely detrimentally impact the project as a whole. So I find it an
> >> unfortunate decision for a core team member.
> > 
> > It is up to each individual to decide how they can maximise their
> > contribution to the project. I'm still more than happy to answer
> > questions in reviews, or via email, and will join IRC meetings where
> > there is an important topic that directly needs my input. I simply
> > feel that I can maximise the value of my contribution to the project
> > without being on IRC getting direct pings all the time, when the
> > overwhealming majority of those pings can be easily dealt with via
> > email or gerrit.
> 
> Definitely true, to each his/her own. I still consider it unfortunate.
> I've also heard core developers state that they stopped reading the
> mailing list months ago. Which I also find unfortunate.

Unfortunate is putting it mildly.

The #1 issue we have in this project is communicating with each other
about changes that will affect the way the whole project works. We've
put new processes in place over the last year for formalizing reviews of
designs, but that's only one tool among many that we use. The mailing
list is important specifically because it's less rigidly structured, so
conversations can happen more freely. We're too big of a group for any
individual to expect us to seek them out to make sure their voice is
heard. It no doubt makes life easier to shut out all of the "noise" of
projects you're not interested in, but if you're not participating,
you're going to be left out.

Doug

> 
> 	-Sean
> 
> -- 
> Sean Dague
> http://dague.net
> 
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