Open Stack

Hi Avishay-san,
Thank you for your comment. I commented in-line.

>> I'm sorry, but I remain unconvinced.  Is there a customer demand for this feature?
Currently, we do not have specific customer’s demand for this feature.
But I believe this feature provides benefits to both customers and cloud providers.

>> If you'd like, feel free to add this topic to a Cinder weekly meeting agenda,
>> and join the meeting so that we can have an interactive discussion.
If possible, I would like to continue discussions on the ML.

Regards,
Mitsuhiro Tanino <mitsuhiro.tanino at hds.com>
     HITACHI DATA SYSTEMS
     c/o Red Hat, 314 Littleton Road, Westford, MA 01886

From: Avishay Traeger [mailto:avishay at stratoscale.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 3:06 AM
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Cc: Tomoki Sekiyama
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Cinder] Support LVM on a shared LU

Hello Mitsuhiro,
I'm sorry, but I remain unconvinced.  Is there a customer demand for this feature?
If you'd like, feel free to add this topic to a Cinder weekly meeting agenda, and join the meeting so that we can have an interactive discussion.
https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CinderMeetings

Thanks,
Avishay

On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 12:31 AM, Mitsuhiro Tanino <mitsuhiro.tanino at hds.com<mailto:mitsuhiro.tanino at hds.com>> wrote:
Hi Avishay-san,

Thank you for your review and comments for my proposal. I commented in-line.

>>So the way I see it, the value here is a generic driver that can work with any storage.  The downsides:

A generic ­driver for any storage is an one of benefit.
But main benefit of proposed driver is as follows.
- Reduce hardware based storage workload by offloading the workload to software based volume operation.

Conventionally, operations to an enterprise storage such as volume creation, deletion, snapshot, etc
are only permitted system administrator and they handle these operations after carefully examining.
In OpenStack cloud environment, every user have a permission to execute these storage operations
via cinder. As a result, workloads of storages have been increasing and it is difficult to manage
the workloads.

If we have two drivers in regards to a storage, we can use both way as the situation demands.
Ex.
  As for "Standard" type storage, use proposed software based LVM cinder driver.
  As for "High performance" type storage, use hardware based cinder driver.

As a result, we can offload the workload of standard type storage from physical storage to cinder host.

>>1. The admin has to manually provision a very big volume and attach it to the Nova and Cinder hosts.
>>  Every time a host is rebooted,

I thinks current FC-based cinder drivers using scsi scan to find created LU.
# echo "- - -" > /sys/class/scsi_host/host#/scan

The admin can find additional LU using this, so host reboot are not required.

>> or introduced, the admin must do manual work. This is one of the things OpenStack should be trying
>> to avoid. This can't be automated without a driver, which is what you're trying to avoid.

Yes. Some admin manual work is required and can’t be automated.
I would like to know whether these operations are acceptable range to enjoy benefits from
my proposed driver.

>>2. You lose on performance to volumes by adding another layer in the stack.

I think this is case by case.  When user use a cinder volume for DATA BASE, they prefer
raw volume and proposed driver can’t provide raw cinder volume.
In this case, I recommend "High performance" type storage.

LVM is a default feature in many Linux distribution. Also LVM is used many enterprise
systems and I think there is not critical performance loss.

>>3. You lose performance with snapshots - appliances will almost certainly have more efficient snapshots
>> than LVM over network (consider that for every COW operation, you are reading synchronously over the network).
>> (Basically, you turned your fully-capable storage appliance into a dumb JBOD)

I agree that storage has efficient COW snapshot feature, so we can create new Boot Volume
from glance quickly. In this case, I recommend "High performance" type storage.
LVM can’t create nested snapshot with shared LVM now. Therefore, we can’t assign
writable LVM snapshot to instances.

Is this answer for your comment?

>> In short, I think the cons outweigh the pros.  Are there people deploying OpenStack who would deploy
>> their storage like this?

Please consider above main benefit.

Regards,
Mitsuhiro Tanino <mitsuhiro.tanino at hds.com<http://mitsuhiro.tanino@hds.com>>
     HITACHI DATA SYSTEMS
     c/o Red Hat, 314 Littleton Road, Westford, MA 01886

From: Avishay Traeger [mailto:avishay at stratoscale.com<mailto:avishay at stratoscale.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 4:36 AM
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Cc: Tomoki Sekiyama
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Cinder] Support LVM on a shared LU

So the way I see it, the value here is a generic driver that can work with any storage.  The downsides:
1. The admin has to manually provision a very big volume and attach it to the Nova and Cinder hosts.  Every time a host is rebooted, or introduced, the admin must do manual work. This is one of the things OpenStack should be trying to avoid. This can't be automated without a driver, which is what you're trying to avoid.
2. You lose on performance to volumes by adding another layer in the stack.
3. You lose performance with snapshots - appliances will almost certainly have more efficient snapshots than LVM over network (consider that for every COW operation, you are reading synchronously over the network).

(Basically, you turned your fully-capable storage appliance into a dumb JBOD)

In short, I think the cons outweigh the pros.  Are there people deploying OpenStack who would deploy their storage like this?

Thanks,
Avishay
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 6:31 PM, Mitsuhiro Tanino <mitsuhiro.tanino at hds.com<mailto:mitsuhiro.tanino at hds.com>> wrote:
Hello All,

I’m proposing a feature of LVM driver to support LVM on a shared LU.
The proposed LVM volume driver provides these benefits.
  - Reduce hardware based storage workload by offloading the workload to software based volume operation.
  - Provide quicker volume creation and snapshot creation without storage workloads.
  - Enable cinder to any kinds of shared storage volumes without specific cinder storage driver.
  - Better I/O performance using direct volume access via Fibre channel.

In the attachment pdf, following contents are explained.
  1. Detail of Proposed LVM volume driver
  1-1. Big Picture
  1-2. Administrator preparation
  1-3. Work flow of volume creation and attachment
  2. Target of Proposed LVM volume driver
  3. Comparison of Proposed LVM volume driver

Could you review the attachment?
Any comments, questions, additional ideas would be appreciated.


Also there are blueprints, wiki and patches related to the slide.
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/cinder/+spec/lvm-driver-for-shared-storage
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/lvm-driver-for-shared-storage
https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Cinder/NewLVMbasedDriverForSharedStorageInCinder
https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92479/
https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92443/

Regards,
Mitsuhiro Tanino <mitsuhiro.tanino at hds.com<http://mitsuhiro.tanino@hds.com>>
     HITACHI DATA SYSTEMS
     c/o Red Hat, 314 Littleton Road, Westford, MA 01886

_______________________________________________
OpenStack-dev mailing list
OpenStack-dev at lists.openstack.org<mailto:OpenStack-dev at lists.openstack.org>
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


_______________________________________________
OpenStack-dev mailing list
OpenStack-dev at lists.openstack.org<mailto:OpenStack-dev at lists.openstack.org>
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/attachments/20140530/0c6430fc/attachment.html>