Open Stack

To level set, the FWaaS model was (intentionally) made agnostic of
whether the firewall was being subject to the E-W or N-S traffic (or
both). The possibility of having to use a different
strategy/implementation to handle the two sets of traffic differently,
is an artifact of the backend implementation (and DVR in this case). I
am not sure that the FWaaS user needs to be aware of this distinction.
Admittedly, this makes the implementation of FWaaS harder on the DVR
reference implementation.

This incompatibility issue between FWaaS and DVR was raised several
times in the past, but unfortunately we don't have a clean technical
solution yet. I am suspecting that this issue will manifest for any
service (NAT/VPNaaS?) that was leveraging the connection tracking
feature of iptables in the past.

The FWaaS team has also been trying to devise a solution for this
(this is a standing item on our weekly IRC meetings), but we would
need more help from the DVR team on this (I believe that was the
original plan in talking to Swami/Vivek/team).

Would it be possible for the relevant folks from the DVR team to
attend the FWaaS meeting on Wednesday [1] to facilitate a dedicated
discussion on this topic? That way it might be possible to get more
input from the FWaaS team on this.

Thanks,
~Sumit.

[1] https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/FWaaS


On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 12:23 AM, Narasimhan, Vivekanandan
<vivekanandan.narasimhan at hp.com> wrote:
> Hi Yi,
>
>
>
> Swami will be available from this week.
>
>
>
> Will it be possible for you to join the regular DVR Meeting (Wed 8AM PST)
> next week and we can slot that to discuss this.
>
>
>
> I see that FwaaS is of much value for E/W traffic (which has challenges),
> but for me it looks easier to implement the same in N/S with the
>
> current DVR architecture, but there might be less takers on that.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Vivek
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Yi Sun [mailto:beyounn at gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2014 11:50 AM
> To: openstack-dev at lists.openstack.org
> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] DVR and FWaaS integration
>
>
>
> The NS FW will be on a centralized node for sure. For the DVR + FWaaS
> solution is really for EW traffic. If you are interested on the topic,
> please propose your preferred meeting time and join the meeting so that we
> can discuss about it.
>
> Yi
>
> On 7/2/14, 7:05 PM, joehuang wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> It’s hard to integrate DVR and FWaaS. My proposal is to split the FWaaS into
> two parts: one part is for east-west FWaaS, this part could be done on DVR
> side, and make it become distributed manner. The other part is for
> north-south part, this part could be done on Network Node side, that means
> work in central manner. After the split, north-south FWaaS could be
> implemented by software or hardware, meanwhile, east-west FWaaS is better to
> implemented by software with its distribution nature.
>
>
>
> Chaoyi Huang ( Joe Huang )
>
> OpenStack Solution Architect
>
> IT Product Line
>
> Tel: 0086 755-28423202 Cell: 0086 158 118 117 96 Email: joehuang at huawei.com
>
> Huawei Area B2-3-D018S Bantian, Longgang District,Shenzhen 518129, P.R.China
>
>
>
> 发件人: Yi Sun [mailto:beyounn at gmail.com]
> 发送时间: 2014年7月3日 4:42
> 收件人: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> 抄送: Kyle Mestery (kmestery); Rajeev; Gary Duan; Carl (OpenStack Neutron)
> 主题: Re: [openstack-dev] DVR and FWaaS integration
>
>
>
> All,
>
> After talk to Carl and FWaaS team , Both sides suggested to call a meeting
> to discuss about this topic in deeper detail. I heard that Swami is
> traveling this week. So I guess the earliest time we can have a meeting is
> sometime next week. I will be out of town on monday, so any day after Monday
> should work for me. We can do either IRC, google hang out, GMT or even a
> face to face.
>
> For anyone interested, please propose your preferred time.
>
> Thanks
>
> Yi
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Carl Baldwin <carl at ecbaldwin.net> wrote:
>
> In line...
>
> On Jun 25, 2014 2:02 PM, "Yi Sun" <beyounn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>> During last summit, we were talking about the integration issues between
>> DVR and FWaaS. After the summit, I had one IRC meeting with DVR team. But
>> after that meeting I was tight up with my work and did not get time to
>> continue to follow up the issue. To not slow down the discussion, I'm
>> forwarding out the email that I sent out as the follow up to the IRC meeting
>> here, so that whoever may be interested on the topic can continue to discuss
>> about it.
>>
>> First some background about the issue:
>> In the normal case, FW and router are running together inside the same box
>> so that FW can get route and NAT information from the router component. And
>> in order to have FW to function correctly, FW needs to see the both
>> directions of the traffic.
>> DVR is designed in an asymmetric way that each DVR only sees one leg of
>> the traffic. If we build FW on top of DVR, then FW functionality will be
>> broken. We need to find a good method to have FW to work with DVR.
>>
>> ---forwarding email---
>>  During the IRC meeting, we think that we could force the traffic to the
>> FW before DVR. Vivek had more detail; He thinks that since the br-int knowns
>> whether a packet is routed or switched, it is possible for the br-int to
>> forward traffic to FW before it forwards to DVR. The whole forwarding
>> process can be operated as part of service-chain operation. And there could
>> be a FWaaS driver that understands the DVR configuration to setup OVS flows
>> on the br-int.
>
> I'm not sure what this solution would look like.  I'll have to get the
> details from Vivek.  It seems like this would effectively centralize the
> traffic that we worked so hard to decentralize.
>
> It did cause me to wonder about something:  would it be possible to reign
> the symmetry to the traffic by directing any response traffic back to the
> DVR component which handled the request traffic?  I guess this would require
> running conntrack on the target side to track and identify return traffic.
> I'm not sure how this would be inserted into the data path yet.  This is a
> half-baked idea here.
>
>> The concern is that normally firewall and router are integrated together
>> so that firewall can make right decision based on the routing result. But
>> what we are suggesting is to split the firewall and router into two
>> separated components, hence there could be issues. For example, FW will not
>> be able to get enough information to setup zone. Normally Zone contains a
>> group of interfaces that can be used in the firewall policy to enforce the
>> direction of the policy. If we forward traffic to firewall before DVR, then
>> we can only create policy based on subnets not the interface.
>> Also, I’m not sure if we have ever planed to support SNAT on the DVR, but
>> if we do, then it depends on at which point we forward traffic to the FW,
>> the subnet may not even work for us anymore (even DNAT could have problem
>> too).
>
> I agree that splitting the firewall from routing presents some problems that
> may be difficult to overcome.  I don't know how it would be done while
> maintaining the benefits of DVR.
>
> Another half-baked idea:  could multi-primary state replication be used
> between DVR components to enable firewall operation?  Maybe work on the HA
> router blueprint -- which is long overdue to be merged Btw -- could be
> leveraged.  The number of DVR "pieces" could easily far exceed that of
> active firewall components normally used in such a configuration so there
> could be a major scaling problem.  I'm really just thinking out loud here.
>
> Maybe you (or others) have other ideas?
>
>> Another thing that I may have to get detail is that how we handle the
>> overlap subnet, it seems that the new namespaces are required.
>
> Can you elaborate here?
>
> Carl
>
>>
>> --- end of forwarding ----
>>
>> YI
>>
>>
>
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>>
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