[openstack-dev] [all] The future of the integrated release

Joshua Harlow harlowja at outlook.com
Wed Aug 13 13:29:44 UTC 2014

On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 5:37 AM, Mark McLoughlin <markmc at redhat.com> 
> On Fri, 2014-08-08 at 15:36 -0700, Devananda van der Veen wrote:
>>  On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Monty Taylor 
>> <mordred at inaugust.com> wrote:
>>  > Yes.
>>  >
>>  > Additionally, and I think we've been getting better at this in 
>> the 2 cycles
>>  > that we've had an all-elected TC, I think we need to learn how to 
>> say no on
>>  > technical merit - and we need to learn how to say "thank you for 
>> your
>>  > effort, but this isn't working out" Breaking up with someone is 
>> hard to do,
>>  > but sometimes it's best for everyone involved.
>>  >
>>  I agree.
>>  The challenge is scaling the technical assessment of projects. We're
>>  all busy, and digging deeply enough into a new project to make an
>>  accurate assessment of it is time consuming. Some times, there are
>>  impartial subject-matter experts who can spot problems very quickly,
>>  but how do we actually gauge fitness?
> Yes, it's important the TC does this and it's obvious we need to get a
> lot better at it.
> The Marconi architecture threads are an example of us trying harder 
> (and
> kudos to you for taking the time), but it's a little disappointing how
> it has turned out. On the one hand there's what seems like a "this
> doesn't make any sense" gut feeling and on the other hand an earnest,
> but hardly bite-sized justification for how the API was chosen and how
> it lead to the architecture. Frustrating that appears to not be
> resulting in either improved shared understanding, or improved
> architecture. Yet everyone is trying really hard.
>>  Letting the industry field-test a project and feed their experience
>>  back into the community is a slow process, but that is the best
>>  measure of a project's success. I seem to recall this being an
>>  implicit expectation a few years ago, but haven't seen it discussed 
>> in
>>  a while.
> I think I recall us discussing a "must have feedback that it's
> successfully deployed" requirement in the last cycle, but we 
> recognized
> that deployers often wait until a project is integrated.
>>  I'm not suggesting we make a policy of it, but if, after a
>>  few cycles, a project is still not meeting the needs of users, I 
>> think
>>  that's a very good reason to free up the hold on that role within 
>> the
>>  stack so other projects can try and fill it (assuming that is even a
>>  role we would want filled).
> I'm certainly not against discussing de-integration proposals. But I
> could imagine a case for de-integrating every single one of our
> integrated projects. None of our software is perfect. How do we make
> sure we approach this sanely, rather than run the risk of someone
> starting a witch hunt because of a particular pet peeve?
> I could imagine a really useful dashboard showing the current state of
> projects along a bunch of different lines - summary of latest
> deployments data from the user survey, links to known scalability
> issues, limitations that operators should take into account, some
> capturing of trends so we know whether things are improving. All of 
> this
> data would be useful to the TC, but also hugely useful to operators.


This seems to be the only way to determine when a project isn't working 
out for the users in the community.

With such unbiased data being available, it would make a great case for 
why de-integration could happen. It would then allow the project to go 
back and fix itself, or allow for a replacement to be created that 
doesn't have the same set of limitations/problems. This would seem like 
a way that let's the project that works for users best to eventually be 
selected (survival of the fittest); although we also have to be 
careful, software isn't static and instead can be reshaped and molded 
and we should give the project that has issues a chance to reshape 
itself (giving the benefit of the doubt vs not).

> Mark.
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