Open Stack

On 11/15/2013 12:08 PM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> Adrian Otto wrote:
>> If OpenStack starts a culture of exclusion instead of inclusion, that would start a dangerous trend that sets the wrong tone. It would quickly reach the point where new projects like mine would simply not come here. We would go somewhere else that does have a culture of inclusion. We would not employ the values of open design and open collaboration, and we would be back to the "throw stuff over the wall" approach to open source. That would be a tragedy. Don't destroy the things about OpenStack's community that make it awesome.
> 
> It's definitely a trade-off between usability and community inclusion...
> Trust me, I understand the value of cross-pollination, which is why I
> wouldn't support a pure per-project split (as suggested elsewhere in
> this thread). I'm just trying to find the right balance.
> 
>>> Because they ARE two different groups.
>>
>> That thinking is backwards. From a community perspective we are not two different groups. Making us into two groups is a huge mistake.
> 
> I was talking about groups of projects. We have an incubation process to
> decide when new projects are allowed to start tapping into OpenStack
> common resources, like use an openstack/* repo, get into the integrated
> gate, or tap into QA or release management dudes for guidance. I see
> openstack-dev ML space as one of those common resources. Letting anyone
> use it to talk about their new stackforge project has some cost, even if
> it's an externality to you.
> 
> This is not about excluding anyone, it's about prioritizing our
> resources. If we followed your line of thought, we should just abandon
> the project incubation process because it's a way to prevent promising
> projects from accessing resources they need in order to develop their
> full potential.
> 
> Anyway, I don't expect to convince you, since you're clearly the one
> benefiting the most from the current setup. I'm on the other end of the
> spectrum, trying my best to keep my sanity with the ever-growing number
> of things I need to keep an eye on :) And maybe the benefits of
> unlimited cross-pollination are worth more than the drawback of forcing
> everyone to process enormous email piles every day. (Filtering is an
> option I have with well-behaved projects like Solum, I just fear it
> would not work so well for less "filterable" threads.)

Can I suggest that you don't try purely mechanical filtering into
folders? Instead, for a while, try using a threaded client, and
configure it to show threads unexpanded by default. Then, when you're
going to read openstack-dev, you can scan the subject lines with your
eyes, which are AMAZINGLY good at pattern recognition and
contextualization. It's pretty easy to skip over the non-OpenStack threads.

BTW - in the 55 most recently active threads in openstack-dev, 8 of them
are for topics that are only of interest to 'official' OpenStack
projects. All 8 of them are properly prefixed and easy to ignore. There
are a few, like:

[openstack-dev] [Trove][Savanna][Murano] Unified Agent proposal
discussion at Summit

that involve integrated, incubated, and stackforge projects. But those
are still related to integrated or incubated, so I did not include them
in the 8.

For the record, I'm pasting the topics and message counts here:

[openstack-dev] Split of the openstack-dev list (48 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Neutron] New plug-ins requirements (7 messages)
[openstack-dev] Is Havana keystone rpm actually splitting identity and
assignment? (4 messages)
[openstack-dev] Using AD for keystone authentication only (9 messages)
[openstack-dev] Openstack + OpenContrail (2 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Glance] Summit Session Summaries (2 messages)
[openstack-dev] [nova][api] Is this a potential issue (11 messages)
[openstack-dev] sqlalchemy-migrate 0.8.1 (2 messages)
[openstack-dev] [qa] Proposals for Tempest core (5 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Heat] Continue discussing multi-region orchestration
(13 messages)
[openstack-dev] Congress: an open policy framework (10 messages)
[openstack-dev] [nova][object] One question to the resource tracker
session (11 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Solum] SFO Design Workshop
[openstack-dev] [Neutron] Neutron Tempest code sprint - 2nd week of
January, Montreal, QC, Canada (27 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Neutron] Troubleshooting OVS RPC API unit test error (3
messages)
[openstack-dev] sqlalchemy-migrate needs a new release (15 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Neutron] Find the compute host on which a VM runs (2
messages)
[openstack-dev] [Neutron] Plugin and Driver Inclusion Requirements (4
messages)
[openstack-dev] Shall backward compatibility env. vars be removed from
python-clients? (6 messages)
[openstack-dev] [horizon] User registrations (9 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Heat] rough draft of Heat autoscaling API (26 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Solum] Command Line Interface for Solum (20 messages)
[openstack-dev] [nova] future fate of nova-network? (3 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Nova] New API requirements, review of GCE (6 messages)
[openstack-dev] how can I know a new instance is created from the code ?
(3 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Nova] Icehouse Blueprints (2 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Solum/Heat] Is Solum really necessary? (14 messages)
[openstack-dev] Nova XML serialization bug 1223358 moving discussion
here to get more people involved (4 messages)
[openstack-dev] [RFC] Straw man to start the incubation / graduation
requirements discussion (11 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Savanna] DiskBuilder / savanna-image-elements (4 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Keystone] Blob in keystone v3 certificate API (2 messages)
[openstack-dev] [oslo] team meeting Friday 15 November @ 14:00 UTC (2
messages)
[openstack-dev] [Trove][Savanna][Murano] Unified Agent proposal
discussion at Summit (6 messages)
[openstack-dev] [oslo] tracking graduation status for incubated code
[openstack-dev] [OpenStack-dev][Neutron][Tempest]Can Tempest embrace
some complicated network scenario tests (3 messages)
[openstack-dev] [nova][cinder][oslo][scheduler] How to leverage oslo
schduler/filters for nova and cinder (6 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Nova] Hypervisor CI requirement and deprecation  plan
[openstack-dev] [Ceilometer] compute agent cannot start (7 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Horizon] Use icon set instead of instance Action (4
messages)
[openstack-dev] [OpenStack][Horizon] poweroff/shutdown action in horizon
(3 messages)
[openstack-dev] [Murano] Implementing Elastic Applications (3 messages)

Now - tell me in the above list where the mass of StackForge related
email overwhelming madness is coming from. I count 4 topics and 26
messages out of a total of 44 topics and 328 messages.

So - before we take the extreme move of segregation, can we just try
threaded mail readers for a while and see if it helps?

Monty