Thanks for your reply Jake. 

However, merging a driver into Magnum does ship the message that it is the default. 

Also, I can’t imagine a world where there’s two CAPI drivers inside of Magnum. 

I just think everything should stay out of tree till an implementation stands out to be “the one” then we can decide. 

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From: Jake Yip <jake.yip@ardc.edu.au>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2024 6:08:15 AM
To: OpenStack Discuss <openstack-discuss@lists.openstack.org>
Subject: Re: [magnum] Dropping default Cluster API driver
 
Hi Mohmamed, all,

I would like to contribute a few points from the POV of Magnum PTL and
the Magnum Core Team. I think it is important to present my point of
view to see how we came to the decisions we did.

First of all, let me say we are not merging a 'default' driver for
ClusterAPI. In fact, all the work so far has been towards the direction
of supporting multiple drivers.

A brief sequence of events (that were also captured in StackHPC's blog
post):

* StackHPC proposed a spec[1] in the beginning of 2022.

* Code for CAPI driver was also proposed around the same time[2].

* Work was paused a for a while until 2023. People were busy, Magnum
Core Team members moved on. Magnum was leaderless in Zed. I came onboard
as PTL in Antelope, midway through this effort. I was unaware of the
history and dynamics of this effort, which is important later on.

* StackHPC picked up the work on their driver in 2023. It was marked as
ready for review in Jun 2023.

* VEXXHOST worked on their own driver[3] outside of Magnum.

* StackHPC and VEXXHOST announced a talk together about ClusterAPI[4] in
Jun 2023 in the Vancouver summit. I had (mistakenly) believed that the
driver StackHPC is working on is fine by both VEXXHOST and StackHPC,
since they were having a talk together.

* Magnum Core was ready to merge StackHPC driver for Bobcat, when
jrosser[5] asked out of the blue if this will conflict with VEXXHOST
implementation. Realising that is the case, we decided to hold off
merging in Bobcat.

* This was not an easy decision, given that StackHPC have been putting
in effort into getting the driver upstream, and many users have been
asking for a Cluster API driver. However, I felt that the most important
thing is DO NOT BREAK PRODUCTION implementations, which lead us to
holding it off.

* Subsequently in the vPTG, we discussed about the state of two drivers.

* Magnum Core Team decided that, instead of choosing one driver or
another, Magnum should first support multiple drivers.

* Improving Magnum driver discovery mechanism became a Caracal goal.
There is a spec[6] and an implementation[7].

Which brings us up to current date.

---

My view as the PTL is as follow:

* I work within OpenStack processes. The community propose changes, the
Core Team review and merge (or drop).

* StackHPC driver is not the 'default'. It is a driver, albeit the only
one, contributed into Magnum code.

* We are open to merging more CAPI drivers into Magnum code. (Other
users have raised different CAPI ideas, we have encouraged them to send
patches)

* Magnum is open to supporting out of tree drivers too.

* Magnum have put effort into ensuring multiple drivers can co-exist. It
is important to us that VEXXHOST (and others) can continue using its driver.

* Deployment tools like OpenStack-Ansible can continue to package any
driver as an add-on, and use that instead as their default.

(there are more thoughts... but these should suffice for now...)

---

Mohammed, I will respond to your comments separately, but I may await
the community's input first, since the initial email was directed the
community.

Regards,
Jake

[1] https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Freview.opendev.org%2Fc%2Fopenstack%2Fmagnum-specs%2F%2B%2F824488&data=05%7C02%7Cmnaser%40vexxhost.com%7Cba2e8c9994f84a6edd1b08dc313bddda%7C54e2b12264054dafa35bf65edc45c621%7C0%7C0%7C638439380394093494%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3MiXNaN%2B%2FRczyWklmN0nMAcVSXQc7KDQmg%2BDExLCrCA%3D&reserved=0
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[4] https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DGjSsP4-p-SQ&data=05%7C02%7Cmnaser%40vexxhost.com%7Cba2e8c9994f84a6edd1b08dc313bddda%7C54e2b12264054dafa35bf65edc45c621%7C0%7C0%7C638439380394109167%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=RcuGFeN2a49m%2B16HINXeGr344kZ3oPJY8zZKCe89uMI%3D&reserved=0
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On 17/2/2024 6:55 am, Mohammed Naser wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> It seems that based on a recent post that  I saw on the
> Twitter-sphere[1], it seems that the Magnum team has decided to move
> forward with setting a default driver for the Cluster API.  I don't
> agree with this.
>
> Unfortunately, we don't have much recordings of our PTG conversations,
> and since the notes on the PTG are pretty light[2], I don't see any
> details of that.  I don't see why we should be merging a native Cluster
> API driver and not allowing the operators and deployment tools decide
> which one they want to support.
>
> Personally, I think that the Helm driver should be built in a separate
> repository and then installed by the user as a Python package once they
> understand what are the backends and their options, as opposed to
> shipping one out of the box with far less features.
>
> We already have successful users which are using our implementation in
> production that have also posted blogs and shared their experience, we'd
> be doing them a disservice by now announcing a 'native' built-in driver.
>
> Can the decision be changed so that there is no built-in driver, and you
> must decide to install one yourself?  Also, I would be really happy to
> hear feedback from users of the driver for their comments here.
>
> Thanks,
> Mohmamed
>
>
> [1]: https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.stackhpc.com%2Fmagnum-clusterapi.html&data=05%7C02%7Cmnaser%40vexxhost.com%7Cba2e8c9994f84a6edd1b08dc313bddda%7C54e2b12264054dafa35bf65edc45c621%7C0%7C0%7C638439380394124062%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=TL7DUTNaoQ5L%2ByHhCct35Aod%2Bf%2B%2BDd0pu8UIK%2FuAGXc%3D&reserved=0
> <https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.stackhpc.com%2Fmagnum-clusterapi.html&data=05%7C02%7Cmnaser%40vexxhost.com%7Cba2e8c9994f84a6edd1b08dc313bddda%7C54e2b12264054dafa35bf65edc45c621%7C0%7C0%7C638439380394127663%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=eqBvxEXPp8MSoh22UmT%2Bvo3EdLW4YE87fRr2IFu8RJk%3D&reserved=0>
> [2]: https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fetherpad.opendev.org%2Fp%2Fr.5b94a5a9dbf4e3bf8202b5e57cb93770&data=05%7C02%7Cmnaser%40vexxhost.com%7Cba2e8c9994f84a6edd1b08dc313bddda%7C54e2b12264054dafa35bf65edc45c621%7C0%7C0%7C638439380394131257%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Fg246gAMLPfPBED3MuIj4tKPgXG4rouKJmZcAguqVt4%3D&reserved=0
> <https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fetherpad.opendev.org%2Fp%2Fr.5b94a5a9dbf4e3bf8202b5e57cb93770&data=05%7C02%7Cmnaser%40vexxhost.com%7Cba2e8c9994f84a6edd1b08dc313bddda%7C54e2b12264054dafa35bf65edc45c621%7C0%7C0%7C638439380394134730%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x5RF90PP%2BVUrdbiwRsr7vuKZCpPutA1QfrW11%2FMmu9A%3D&reserved=0>