Re: [legal-discuss] [openstack-dev] [Marconi] Why is marconi a queue implementation vs a provisioning API?
Its my understanding that the only case the A in the AGPL would kick in is if the cloud provider made a change to MongoDB and exposed the MongoDB instance to users. Then the users would have to be able to download the changed code. Since Marconi's in front, the user is Marconi, and wouldn't ever want to download the source. As far as I can tell, in this use case, the AGPL'ed MongoDB is not really any different then the GPL'ed MySQL in footprint here. MySQL is acceptable, so why isn't MongoDB? It would be good to get legal's official take on this. It would be a shame to make major architectural decisions based on license assumptions that turn out not to be true. I'm cc-ing them. Thanks, Kevin ________________________________________ From: Chris Friesen [chris.friesen@windriver.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 2:24 PM To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Marconi] Why is marconi a queue implementation vs a provisioning API? On 03/19/2014 02:24 PM, Fox, Kevin M wrote:
Can someone please give more detail into why MongoDB being AGPL is a problem? The drivers that Marconi uses are Apache2 licensed, MongoDB is separated by the network stack and MongoDB is not exposed to the Marconi users so I don't think the 'A' part of the GPL really kicks in at all since the MongoDB "user" is the cloud provider, not the cloud end user?
Even if MongoDB was exposed to end-users, would that be a problem? Obviously the source to MongoDB would need to be made available (presumably it already is) but does the AGPL licence "contaminate" the Marconi stuff? I would have thought that would fall under "mere aggregation". Chris _______________________________________________ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Proxying from yahoo's open source director (since he wasn't initially subscribed to this list, afaik he now is) on his behalf.
From Gil Yehuda (Yahoo’s Open Source director).
I would urge you to avoid creating a dependency between Openstack code and any AGPL project, including MongoDB. MongoDB is licensed in a very strange manner that is prone to creating unintended licensing mistakes (a lawyer’s dream). Indeed, MongoDB itself presents Apache licensed drivers – and thus technically, users of those drivers are not impacted by the AGPL terms. MongoDB Inc. is in the unique position to license their drivers this way (although they appear to violate the AGPL license) since MongoDB is not going to sue themselves for their own violation. However, others in the community create MongoDB drivers are licensing those drivers under the Apache and MIT licenses – which does pose a problem. Why? The AGPL considers 'Corresponding Source' to be defined as “the source code for shared libraries and dynamically linked subprograms that the work is specifically designed to require, such as by intimate data communication or control flow between those subprograms and other parts of the work." Database drivers *are* work that is designed to require by intimate data communication or control flow between those subprograms and other parts of the work. So anyone using MongoDB with any other driver now invites an unknown -- that one court case, one judge, can read the license under its plain meaning and decide that AGPL terms apply as stated. We have no way to know how far they apply since this license has not been tested in court yet. Despite all the FAQs MongoDB puts on their site indicating they don't really mean to assert the license terms, normally when you provide a license, you mean those terms. If they did not mean those terms, they would not use this license. I hope they intended to do something good (to get contributions back without impacting applications using their database) but, even good intentions have unintended consequences. Companies with deep enough pockets to be lawsuit targets, and companies who want to be good open source citizens face the problem that using MongoDB anywhere invites the future risk of legal catastrophe. A simple development change in an open source project can change the economics drastically. This is simply unsafe and unwise. OpenStack's ecosystem is fueled by the interests of many commercial ventures who wish to cooperate in the open source manner, but then leverage commercial opportunities they hope to create. I suggest that using MongoDB anywhere in this project will result in a loss of opportunity -- real or perceived, that would outweigh the benefits MongoDB itself provides. tl;dr version: If you want to use MongoDB in your company, that's your call. Please don't turn anyone who uses OpenStack components into a unsuspecting MongoDB users. Instead, decouple the database from the project. It's not worth the legal risk, nor the impact on the "Apache-ness" of this project. Gil Yehuda Sr. Director Of Open Source, Open Standards, Yahoo! Inc. gyehuda@yahoo-inc.com From: <Fox>, Kevin M <Kevin.Fox@pnnl.gov<mailto:Kevin.Fox@pnnl.gov>> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" <openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org<mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 at 2:38 PM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" <openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org<mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Cc: "legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org<mailto:legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org>" <legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org<mailto:legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Marconi] Why is marconi a queue implementation vs a provisioning API? Its my understanding that the only case the A in the AGPL would kick in is if the cloud provider made a change to MongoDB and exposed the MongoDB instance to users. Then the users would have to be able to download the changed code. Since Marconi's in front, the user is Marconi, and wouldn't ever want to download the source. As far as I can tell, in this use case, the AGPL'ed MongoDB is not really any different then the GPL'ed MySQL in footprint here. MySQL is acceptable, so why isn't MongoDB? It would be good to get legal's official take on this. It would be a shame to make major architectural decisions based on license assumptions that turn out not to be true. I'm cc-ing them. Thanks, Kevin ________________________________________ From: Chris Friesen [chris.friesen@windriver.com<mailto:chris.friesen@windriver.com>] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 2:24 PM To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org<mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Marconi] Why is marconi a queue implementation vs a provisioning API? On 03/19/2014 02:24 PM, Fox, Kevin M wrote: Can someone please give more detail into why MongoDB being AGPL is a problem? The drivers that Marconi uses are Apache2 licensed, MongoDB is separated by the network stack and MongoDB is not exposed to the Marconi users so I don't think the 'A' part of the GPL really kicks in at all since the MongoDB "user" is the cloud provider, not the cloud end user? Even if MongoDB was exposed to end-users, would that be a problem? Obviously the source to MongoDB would need to be made available (presumably it already is) but does the AGPL licence "contaminate" the Marconi stuff? I would have thought that would fall under "mere aggregation". Chris _______________________________________________ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org<mailto:OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev _______________________________________________ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org<mailto:OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Why not contact MongoDB to understand its viewpoint, if there's concern? On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 09:38:53PM +0000, Fox, Kevin M wrote:
Its my understanding that the only case the A in the AGPL would kick in is if the cloud provider made a change to MongoDB and exposed the MongoDB instance to users. Then the users would have to be able to download the changed code. Since Marconi's in front, the user is Marconi, and wouldn't ever want to download the source. As far as I can tell, in this use case, the AGPL'ed MongoDB is not really any different then the GPL'ed MySQL in footprint here. MySQL is acceptable, so why isn't MongoDB?
It would be good to get legal's official take on this. It would be a shame to make major architectural decisions based on license assumptions that turn out not to be true. I'm cc-ing them.
Thanks, Kevin ________________________________________ From: Chris Friesen [chris.friesen@windriver.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 2:24 PM To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Marconi] Why is marconi a queue implementation vs a provisioning API?
On 03/19/2014 02:24 PM, Fox, Kevin M wrote:
Can someone please give more detail into why MongoDB being AGPL is a problem? The drivers that Marconi uses are Apache2 licensed, MongoDB is separated by the network stack and MongoDB is not exposed to the Marconi users so I don't think the 'A' part of the GPL really kicks in at all since the MongoDB "user" is the cloud provider, not the cloud end user?
Even if MongoDB was exposed to end-users, would that be a problem?
Obviously the source to MongoDB would need to be made available (presumably it already is) but does the AGPL licence "contaminate" the Marconi stuff? I would have thought that would fall under "mere aggregation".
Chris
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_______________________________________________ legal-discuss mailing list legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/legal-discuss
The problem with AGPL is that the scope is very uncertain and the determination of the consequences are very fact intensive. I was the chair of the User Committee in developing the GPLv3 and I am therefor quite familiar with the legal issues. The incorporation of AGPLv3 code Into OpenStack Project is a significant decision and should not be made without input from the Foundation. At a minimum, the inclusion of APLv3 code means that the OpenStack Project is no longer solely an Apache v2 licensed project because AGPLv3 code cannot be licensed under Apache v. 2 License. Moreover, the inclusion of such code is inconsistent with the current CLA provisions. This code can be included but it is an important decision that should be made carefully. -----Original Message----- From: Fox, Kevin M [mailto:Kevin.Fox@pnnl.gov] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 2:39 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Cc: legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [legal-discuss] [openstack-dev] [Marconi] Why is marconi a queue implementation vs a provisioning API? Its my understanding that the only case the A in the AGPL would kick in is if the cloud provider made a change to MongoDB and exposed the MongoDB instance to users. Then the users would have to be able to download the changed code. Since Marconi's in front, the user is Marconi, and wouldn't ever want to download the source. As far as I can tell, in this use case, the AGPL'ed MongoDB is not really any different then the GPL'ed MySQL in footprint here. MySQL is acceptable, so why isn't MongoDB? It would be good to get legal's official take on this. It would be a shame to make major architectural decisions based on license assumptions that turn out not to be true. I'm cc-ing them. Thanks, Kevin ________________________________________ From: Chris Friesen [chris.friesen@windriver.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 2:24 PM To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Marconi] Why is marconi a queue implementation vs a provisioning API? On 03/19/2014 02:24 PM, Fox, Kevin M wrote:
Can someone please give more detail into why MongoDB being AGPL is a problem? The drivers that Marconi uses are Apache2 licensed, MongoDB is separated by the network stack and MongoDB is not exposed to the Marconi users so I don't think the 'A' part of the GPL really kicks in at all since the MongoDB "user" is the cloud provider, not the cloud end user?
Even if MongoDB was exposed to end-users, would that be a problem? Obviously the source to MongoDB would need to be made available (presumably it already is) but does the AGPL licence "contaminate" the Marconi stuff? I would have thought that would fall under "mere aggregation". Chris _______________________________________________ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev _______________________________________________ legal-discuss mailing list legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/legal-discuss Please consider the environment before printing this email. The information contained in this email may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It has been sent for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If the reader of this message is not an intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication, or any of its contents, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please reply to the sender and destroy all copies of the message. To contact us directly, send to postmaster@dlapiper.com. Thank you.
On Thu, 2014-03-20 at 05:30 +0000, Radcliffe, Mark wrote: ...
At a minimum, the inclusion of APLv3 code means that the OpenStack Project is no longer solely an Apache v2 licensed project because AGPLv3 code cannot be licensed under Apache v. 2 License. Moreover, the inclusion of such code is inconsistent with the current CLA provisions.
This code can be included but it is an important decision that should be made carefully.
The inclusion of AGPLv3 code is not in question here. As Kevin puts it: "The drivers that Marconi uses are Apache2 licensed, MongoDB is separated by the network stack and MongoDB is not exposed to the Marconi users so I don't think the 'A' part of the GPL really kicks in at all" As best I can tell, we're really talking about how seriously OpenStack should take users potentially being concerned about deploying *any* AGPLv3 code in their infrastructure. Mark.
On 03/20/2014 01:30 AM, Radcliffe, Mark wrote:
The problem with AGPL is that the scope is very uncertain and the determination of the consequences are very fact intensive. I was the chair of the User Committee in developing the GPLv3 and I am therefor quite familiar with the legal issues. The incorporation of AGPLv3 code Into OpenStack Project is a significant decision and should not be made without input from the Foundation. At a minimum, the inclusion of APLv3 code means that the OpenStack Project is no longer solely an Apache v2 licensed project because AGPLv3 code cannot be licensed under Apache v. 2 License. Moreover, the inclusion of such code is inconsistent with the current CLA provisions.
This code can be included but it is an important decision that should be made carefully.
I agree - but in this case, I think that we're not talking about including AGPL code in OpenStack as much as we are talking about using an Apache2 driver that would talk to a server that is AGPL ... if the deployer chooses to install the AGPL software. I don't think we're suggesting that downloading or installing openstack itself would involve downloading or installing AGPL code.
-----Original Message----- From: Fox, Kevin M [mailto:Kevin.Fox@pnnl.gov] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 2:39 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Cc: legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [legal-discuss] [openstack-dev] [Marconi] Why is marconi a queue implementation vs a provisioning API?
Its my understanding that the only case the A in the AGPL would kick in is if the cloud provider made a change to MongoDB and exposed the MongoDB instance to users. Then the users would have to be able to download the changed code. Since Marconi's in front, the user is Marconi, and wouldn't ever want to download the source. As far as I can tell, in this use case, the AGPL'ed MongoDB is not really any different then the GPL'ed MySQL in footprint here. MySQL is acceptable, so why isn't MongoDB?
It would be good to get legal's official take on this. It would be a shame to make major architectural decisions based on license assumptions that turn out not to be true. I'm cc-ing them.
Thanks, Kevin ________________________________________ From: Chris Friesen [chris.friesen@windriver.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 2:24 PM To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Marconi] Why is marconi a queue implementation vs a provisioning API?
On 03/19/2014 02:24 PM, Fox, Kevin M wrote:
Can someone please give more detail into why MongoDB being AGPL is a problem? The drivers that Marconi uses are Apache2 licensed, MongoDB is separated by the network stack and MongoDB is not exposed to the Marconi users so I don't think the 'A' part of the GPL really kicks in at all since the MongoDB "user" is the cloud provider, not the cloud end user?
Even if MongoDB was exposed to end-users, would that be a problem?
Obviously the source to MongoDB would need to be made available (presumably it already is) but does the AGPL licence "contaminate" the Marconi stuff? I would have thought that would fall under "mere aggregation".
Chris
_______________________________________________ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
_______________________________________________ legal-discuss mailing list legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/legal-discuss Please consider the environment before printing this email.
The information contained in this email may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It has been sent for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If the reader of this message is not an intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication, or any of its contents, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please reply to the sender and destroy all copies of the message. To contact us directly, send to postmaster@dlapiper.com. Thank you.
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participants (6)
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Fox, Kevin M
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Joshua Harlow
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Mark McLoughlin
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Monty Taylor
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Radcliffe, Mark
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Richard Fontana