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</head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Thanks for the
recommendation! I'll definitely hit up the Product Working Group next
time I encounter an issue. <br>
<br>
The two issues I mentioned were really examples of what we've run into. I
know that both are already on the radar of the appropriate teams. The
idea was to show that there are roadblocks that we've encountered as app
developers that don't really meet the original definition as laid out
by Michael. <br>
<br>
Appreciate all the discussion and didn't mean to hijack the thread :) <br>
<br>
<span>Sun, Yih Leong wrote:</span><br>
<blockquote
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi
Jimmy,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
would recommend to address the issue (e.g. block storage to multiple
VM) through Product WG (PWG).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">PWG
is chartered to address end-user/operators/app-developers (users)
needs/gaps by means of “user story” and collaborate with various
projects for implementation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ProductTeam#Collect_Feedback_and_Aggregate_Requirements">https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ProductTeam#Collect_Feedback_and_Aggregate_Requirements</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ProductTeam/User_Stories#User_Story_Workflow">https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ProductTeam/User_Stories#User_Story_Workflow</a></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/openstack-user-stories/">http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/openstack-user-stories/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true" name="_MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="_____replyseparator"></a><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
Jimmy Mcarthur [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:jimmy@tipit.net">mailto:jimmy@tipit.net</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 23, 2016 12:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Krotscheck <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:krotscheck@gmail.com"><krotscheck@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> user-committee <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:user-committee@lists.openstack.org"><user-committee@lists.openstack.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [User-committee] [app] What is an App?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Michael Krotscheck wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 11:50 AM Jimmy Mcarthur
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jimmy@tipit.net">jimmy@tipit.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div>
<p class="MsoNormal">An example: you can't currently assign block
storage to more than one VM at a time. This is something that I think is
just sitting around as a patch to be approve in Neutron, but it's
causing major problems for us as web application developers
that are deploying on top of OpenStack. Basically, as a result of this
and the lack of replication in Trove, we can't cluster. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div></blockquote>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
It's remarkably difficult to get integrated in IRC channels without
knowing the lingo. Is there some suggestion from the user committee
about where users like us could turn? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div></blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">To address this specific issue: It sounds like you
want to land a specific feature in Neutron. The correct place to
advocate for this is the weekly neutron meeting. As someone who's
recently landed a cross-project feature (in 23 different
projects), I can confidently say that every team is open to - if
occasionally grumpy about - unscheduled features that aren't on their
roadmap. It took me only a few questions, and quite a bit of humility,
to be given a primer on each teams' approval governance,
approval process, and roadmap feature selection.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">Maybe I wasn't clear about my role in OpenStack :)
I'm not an OpenStack developer. I'm a web and mobile application
developer (more appropriately, a project manager) that hosts our sites
on OpenStack public cloud. I don't have a patch to
land in Neutron. I understand that it was already done and is waiting
for approval by that team.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">OpenStack's governance empowers those who are
willing to advocate for themselves, as long as they are willing to back
their requests with actual code. I'm sure that Neutron would be very
happy to address and shepherd any patches you'd be
willing to provide.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">Keep in mind that there is no place that I can
currently advocate for my team, which is why I'm raising the point :) I
work for the Foundation building web and mobile applications, but rely
on OpenStack for infrastructure. Specifically,
we're running on the Rackspace cloud in the same data center as Infra.
The features I mention aren't within our skill set to develop, but
they're critical if OpenStack is to become a viable option on which to
host scalable web applications that need to share
data/resources. Though I'm sure many could do it very ably, I don't
expect OpenStack developers to come and write PHP or javascript in order
to use our website. We're valid users of the software you all are doing
such a great job of building.
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In regards to understanding the IRC 'lingo', I
don't really know what that could refer to. Could you clarify?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">Like any software product, there is common
nomenclature that defines it. Even reading the documentation can't
possibly catch you up on the history of the project and the people,
especially since so much of it takes place in IRC. If you're
not out to become a full time OpenStack developer and simply need
something to work in a particular way, trying to integrate with that
project can be pretty tough.
<br>
<br>
I certainly don't mean to start a great debate, but I would encourage
you to think of app developers that don't use OpenStack SDKs as well as
those that do. If we're not providing a place for those users to deliver
feedback and communicate, we could be missing
out on lots of opportunities to study <i>how</i> they are using the
software. Companies (both large and small) don't always have the
resources to contribute back to OpenStack anymore than every user of
Ubuntu can contribute upstream. There is a whole world
of application developers out there that have no need/ability to be
involved at that level.<br>
<br>
Cheers!<br>
Jimmy<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Michael Krotscheck <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
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