Open Stack

Dear WG and UC chairs,

As per the UC's request, below is a proposed Title and Abstract for an
additional session at the Barcelona Summit.  Amendments, suggestions and
agenda items most welcome, I've attempted to summarise this thread via the
'proposed agenda items" below, please do add additional items in reply if
I've missed your point.

Title: Efficiency of working groups - working together to advance the
community leadership of the user committee.

Primary Audience: Working Group Chairs and Regular WG attendees.
Secondary Audience: Any community member looking to participate and/or hep
organise a user-committee working group.

Abstract:  Running a Working Group which represents one of the many users
of the OpenStack community is not a trivial task, especially when best
practices with regards to the open principles are observed.  This session
will be lead by the User Committee and attended by Working Group chairs to
discuss "good practice" in how to run a working group which has been
approved by the User-Committee.

Proposed agenda items:
- Goal setting methodologies by chairs for each cycle, buy-in, tracking,
deliverable, shared ownership by WG.
- User Committee engagement with WGs and leadership role of UC.
 - Good practice for running F2F meetings at Summit: 2-3 session to assure
outcomes, social gatherings, etc.
 - Recruitment of new members.
 - Timezones and cultural considerations.
 - International perception and foreign language member participation.
 - Communication between WG co-chairs and UC chairs.
 - Input by WGs into Blueprints, working with the TC/PTLs in cycle planning.
- Sub-teams/activities in WGs and/or new WGs... to sub-WG or not to
sub-WG... aka WG scope.
- Joint midcycles with other WGs?  Organised by the UC?
- Co-located WG meetings, i.e. WGs with overlapping membership to meet
after one another?
- WG Co-Chairs: different regions and remits? EU+USA+APAC?
- WG meeting preparation: calendar items, call for agenda items, use of
etherpads, wiki updates, email to user-committee, agreed open meeting
channel (voice vs irc), etc
 - WG meeting runtime: irc meeting bot, agenda with note taking, recorded
actions, reminder of overall objectives for cycle, etc
 - WG post-meeting remit: summary of meeting posted to user-committee
mailing list, list of follow up actions per member name and suggested ETA,
etc.

Naturally, most of the above cannot be covered in a single hour so I'll
leave it up to the UC and WGs to place +1s next to the items which they
feel are of most significance.

Kind Regards,

Flanders


On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 2:11 AM, Edgar Magana <edgar.magana at workday.com>
wrote:

> Jimmy,
>
>
>
> We have requested already the UC one. Maybe we can extend that one to make
> sure that we have time for all WGs chairs and co-chairs.
>
>
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> *From: *Jimmy Mcarthur <jimmy at tipit.net>
> *Date: *Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 9:05 AM
> *To: *David F Flanders <flanders at openstack.org>
> *Cc: *Edgar Magana <edgar.magana at workday.com>, user-committee <
> user-committee at lists.openstack.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [User-committee] Efficiency of WGs?
>
>
>
> If this is a need, please let us know so that we can schedule a room for
> you :)
>
> Thanks!
> Jimmy
>
>
> *David F Flanders* <flanders at openstack.org>
>
> September 19, 2016 at 5:54 PM
>
> Is there plans for the WG chairs to meet together in Barcelona to make
> some decisions on these efficiencies?
>
> /me smiles cheekily at a very busy Edgar ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Flanders | OpenStack Foundation | Community Manager (Cloud Application
> Communities)
> http://superuser.openstack.org/articles/meet-openstack-s-
> community-wrangler-david-flanders
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__superuser.openstack.org_articles_meet-2Dopenstack-2Ds-2Dcommunity-2Dwrangler-2Ddavid-2Dflanders&d=DQMCaQ&c=DS6PUFBBr_KiLo7Sjt3ljp5jaW5k2i9ijVXllEdOozc&r=G0XRJfDQsuBvqa_wpWyDAUlSpeMV4W1qfWqBfctlWwQ&m=lZwtjVJEK6mz-i3EKQC5l7oI-aZ_HJZpsoOkkcQucUY&s=w43IRGshZRnYy0DjwPq4TvJR_SCYutjVGu9n1Rb3jjE&e=>
>
> _______________________________________________
> User-committee mailing list
> User-committee at lists.openstack.org
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/user-committee
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.openstack.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_user-2Dcommittee&d=DQMCaQ&c=DS6PUFBBr_KiLo7Sjt3ljp5jaW5k2i9ijVXllEdOozc&r=G0XRJfDQsuBvqa_wpWyDAUlSpeMV4W1qfWqBfctlWwQ&m=lZwtjVJEK6mz-i3EKQC5l7oI-aZ_HJZpsoOkkcQucUY&s=3D6ClNkDvvSvr60CHILSGjjv8SpgmIxfgPGC1PqxY-0&e=>
>
> *Christopher Aedo* <doc at aedo.net>
>
> September 13, 2016 at 1:31 PM
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Jimmy Mcarthur <jimmy at tipit.net> <jimmy at tipit.net> wrote:
>
> Christopher,
>
>
>
> We might be able to lend a hand with the authentication piece if you're able
>
> to use OpenStackID.
>
>
>
> http://docs.openstack.org/infra/system-config/openstackid.html <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__docs.openstack.org_infra_system-2Dconfig_openstackid.html&d=DQMCaQ&c=DS6PUFBBr_KiLo7Sjt3ljp5jaW5k2i9ijVXllEdOozc&r=G0XRJfDQsuBvqa_wpWyDAUlSpeMV4W1qfWqBfctlWwQ&m=lZwtjVJEK6mz-i3EKQC5l7oI-aZ_HJZpsoOkkcQucUY&s=kLlsJeK7C_8XheMoYCl510yBa4FEgacFXjAFv7LAe9s&e=>
>
> https://github.com/openstack-infra/openstackid <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_openstack-2Dinfra_openstackid&d=DQMCaQ&c=DS6PUFBBr_KiLo7Sjt3ljp5jaW5k2i9ijVXllEdOozc&r=G0XRJfDQsuBvqa_wpWyDAUlSpeMV4W1qfWqBfctlWwQ&m=lZwtjVJEK6mz-i3EKQC5l7oI-aZ_HJZpsoOkkcQucUY&s=PcCe2WgSuUykVQi5T2Gz20F4u3iysESjtwEU4sP6AmY&e=>
>
>
>
> If this is something you're interested in, let me know. I believe we can
>
> help you out.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jimmy McArthur
>
>
>
>
>
> Jimmy, this is definitely something I'd love to have some help on!
>
>
>
> The Lounge is a NodeJS app and is available at
>
> https://github.com/thelounge/lounge/ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_thelounge_lounge_&d=DQMCaQ&c=DS6PUFBBr_KiLo7Sjt3ljp5jaW5k2i9ijVXllEdOozc&r=G0XRJfDQsuBvqa_wpWyDAUlSpeMV4W1qfWqBfctlWwQ&m=lZwtjVJEK6mz-i3EKQC5l7oI-aZ_HJZpsoOkkcQucUY&s=Q5wMUmHcNU4peXFHfgtZ1_rI_2PQZMngNCRoCi_5vqk&e=>  They also have an active
>
> presence on Freenode IRC (#thelounge).
>
>
>
> The need is to integrate authentication using OpenStackID.  It should
>
> be similar to this PR (recently merged) which implemented support for
>
> authentication against LDAP:
>
> https://github.com/thelounge/lounge/pull/477 <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_thelounge_lounge_pull_477&d=DQMCaQ&c=DS6PUFBBr_KiLo7Sjt3ljp5jaW5k2i9ijVXllEdOozc&r=G0XRJfDQsuBvqa_wpWyDAUlSpeMV4W1qfWqBfctlWwQ&m=lZwtjVJEK6mz-i3EKQC5l7oI-aZ_HJZpsoOkkcQucUY&s=aOagbTh4FQi-dYkiJdDUbbkb3WVMr9-eCuxcbHZ_3l0&e=> ..
>
>
>
> In conversation with the lounge devs on IRC they've indicated they
>
> would welcome this work, so I don't anticipate any major issues
>
> getting the code accepted.  They're pretty responsive with
>
> contributors and have been really friendly in my experience.  Let me
>
> know if you have questions, and if there's anything more I can to do
>
> help coordinate this.
>
>
>
> -Christopher
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Christopher Aedo
>
> September 7, 2016 at 2:34 AM
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Blair Bethwaite
>
> <blair.bethwaite at monash.edu> <blair.bethwaite at monash.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Flanders,
>
>
>
> Great discussion. Prompted me to go remind myself of the role and/or
>
> definition of an OS UC Working Group... I didn't find anything "formal", but
>
> w.o.o/UserCommittee says:
>
> =====
>
> The user committee's role is to represent the needs of the diverse range of
>
> OpenStack users. The user committee is advised by Working Groups, each of
>
> whom represents different user audiences and interests.
>
>
>
> The user committee mission is to:
>
>
>
> Consolidate user requirements and present these to the management board and
>
> technical committee[1].
>
> Provide guidance for the development teams where user feedback is requested
>
> Track OpenStack deployments and usage, helping to share user stories and
>
> experiences
>
> Work with the user groups worldwide to keep the OpenStack community vibrant
>
> and informed
>
> =====
>
>
>
> >From the WG activity perspective I would highlight it is very
>
> useful/important to have some direction (as well as support) coming from the
>
> UC - I think our experience with the scientific-wg is roughly that we have a
>
> large interest base and plenty of people who find good value in talking to
>
> and sharing with their peers, but it is quite hard to turn that into
>
> concrete forward momentum or to even mint well articulated goals from within
>
> the group.
>
>
>
> On engagement, IRC is useful for reasons already mentioned in this thread
>
> (and we've been fortunate to have some valuable interactions thanks some
>
> core devs having keyword watches setup on OpenStack channels), but I think
>
> we alienate and/or make things too hard for some potential contributors. And
>
> I don't think it makes a great watercooler discussion tool (e.g. no offline
>
> history etc without setting up a bouncer - and that is fairly opaque even
>
> for a CS major).
>
>
>
> I'm a huge fan of the way we use IRC in the OpenStack community, but
>
> have also recognized getting up and running with a persistent IRC
>
> connection can pose a significant barrier to many very smart and
>
> technically sharp humans.  To that end I wrote a spec to provide a
>
> hosted, persistent IRC web-client [1].  Lately however the effort has
>
> been stalled due to my lack of experience with JS; if we can find
>
> someone who can plumb in the auth piece, we could be up and running
>
> with this fairly quickly.
>
>
>
> I think getting that right will be worth the effort, and could get a
>
> whole lot more people engaged across all our various domains.
>
>
>
> [1] https://review.openstack.org/319506 <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__review.openstack.org_319506&d=DQMCaQ&c=DS6PUFBBr_KiLo7Sjt3ljp5jaW5k2i9ijVXllEdOozc&r=G0XRJfDQsuBvqa_wpWyDAUlSpeMV4W1qfWqBfctlWwQ&m=lZwtjVJEK6mz-i3EKQC5l7oI-aZ_HJZpsoOkkcQucUY&s=oZligmX5wJX3LmxYW2RJCQ7IJCBKT9NUd2ZmMRsbsc8&e=>
>
>
>
> -Christopher
>
>
>
> Having (myself) done a fairly woeful job of keeping pace with the dev side
>
> of OS progression this cycle I'm also interested in exploring ways of
>
> highlighting activities/work that may be of interest to any particular WG.
>
> The first thing that springs to mind is tagging of blueprints and reviews,
>
> e.g., where a dev or other community member is looking for
>
> input/support/resolution from a specific target user group. This could be a
>
> mechanism we as chairs utilise to surface agenda items, solicit input and
>
> then respond on behalf of the group.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Blair
>
>
>
> On 30 August 2016 at 10:36, David F Flanders <flanders at openstack.org> <flanders at openstack.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Working Group Co-Chairs and User Committee Chairs,
>
>
>
> The logistical tasks of running a WG meeting is by no means trivial,
>
> here a quick list of things which a co-chairs of a WG do on a weekly
>
> basis to run a global meeting:
>
>
>
> a.) mint calendar invitation to all members (subscribe/unsubscribe
>
> members)
>
> b.) call for agenda items via etherpad
>
> c.) update wiki with upcoming meeting and link to etherpad agenda
>
> d.) email user-committee mailing list on when next meeting is
>
> occurring along with agenda links
>
> e.) assure meeting channel is confirmed (irc/phone/etc)
>
> f.) run meeting according to good practices (irc etiquette or well
>
> taken notes if via voice)
>
> g.) post meeting follow up: circulating actions, posting meeting
>
> notes, taking any outstanding queries to the mailing list for
>
> consideration, etc.
>
> h.) follow up actions.
>
> i.) recruit new members
>
> j.) plan for summit meetings
>
> k.) etc etc.
>
>
>
> All of the above are sometimes done twice-over at different times to
>
> help maintain the conversation in different timezones.
>
>
>
> In addition, the groups are still not well attended by as diverse an
>
> audience as OpenStack represents. AsiaPac, Latin America, India and
>
> other massive OpenStack user groups have not yet engaged despite some
>
> of their massive communities.
>
>
>
> One of the recent suggestions has been to converge some of the WGs to
>
> help ease the burden of these logistical tasks.
>
>
>
> Other options include:
>
>
>
> * having a more systematic approach to when WG occur, i.e. agreeing
>
> a set pattern such s a day per fortnight which each WG happens (one
>
> after another).
>
>
>
> * having a shared IRC channel for all WG activity to help create
>
> more water-cooler conversation between chairs?
>
>
>
> * sharing of logistical duties between WG chairs, etc
>
>
>
> Options abound, though discussion much needed!
>
>
>
> Q: Is there any good practice we can draw from? I've been digging
>
> around my old W3C and IETF notes to see what good practice there may
>
> be?
>
>
>
> Discussion/replies greatly appreciated to see if there is any consensus?
>
>
>
> Kind Regards,
>
>
>
> Flanders
>
>
>
> --
>
> Blair Bethwaite
>
> Senior HPC Consultant
>
>
>
> Monash eResearch Centre
>
> Monash University
>
> Room G26, 15 Innovation Walk, Clayton Campus
>
> Clayton VIC 3800
>
> Australia
>
> Mobile: 0439-545-002
>
> Office: +61 3-9903-2800
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> User-committee mailing list
>
> User-committee at lists.openstack.org
>
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/user-committee <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.openstack.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_user-2Dcommittee&d=DQMCaQ&c=DS6PUFBBr_KiLo7Sjt3ljp5jaW5k2i9ijVXllEdOozc&r=G0XRJfDQsuBvqa_wpWyDAUlSpeMV4W1qfWqBfctlWwQ&m=lZwtjVJEK6mz-i3EKQC5l7oI-aZ_HJZpsoOkkcQucUY&s=3D6ClNkDvvSvr60CHILSGjjv8SpgmIxfgPGC1PqxY-0&e=>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> User-committee mailing list
>
> User-committee at lists.openstack.org
>
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/user-committee <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.openstack.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_user-2Dcommittee&d=DQMCaQ&c=DS6PUFBBr_KiLo7Sjt3ljp5jaW5k2i9ijVXllEdOozc&r=G0XRJfDQsuBvqa_wpWyDAUlSpeMV4W1qfWqBfctlWwQ&m=lZwtjVJEK6mz-i3EKQC5l7oI-aZ_HJZpsoOkkcQucUY&s=3D6ClNkDvvSvr60CHILSGjjv8SpgmIxfgPGC1PqxY-0&e=>
>
>
>
> Blair Bethwaite
>
> September 5, 2016 at 5:24 PM
>
>
>
> Hi Flanders,
>
>
>
> Great discussion. Prompted me to go remind myself of the role and/or
>
> definition of an OS UC Working Group... I didn't find anything "formal", but
>
> w.o.o/UserCommittee says:
>
> =====
>
> The user committee's role is to represent the needs of the diverse range of
>
> OpenStack users. The user committee is advised by Working Groups, each of
>
> whom represents different user audiences and interests.
>
>
>
> The user committee mission is to:
>
>
>
> Consolidate user requirements and present these to the management board and
>
> technical committee[1].
>
> Provide guidance for the development teams where user feedback is requested
>
> Track OpenStack deployments and usage, helping to share user stories and
>
> experiences
>
> Work with the user groups worldwide to keep the OpenStack community vibrant
>
> and informed
>
> =====
>
>
>
> >From the WG activity perspective I would highlight it is very
>
> useful/important to have some direction (as well as support) coming from the
>
> UC - I think our experience with the scientific-wg is roughly that we have a
>
> large interest base and plenty of people who find good value in talking to
>
> and sharing with their peers, but it is quite hard to turn that into
>
> concrete forward momentum or to even mint well articulated goals from within
>
> the group.
>
>
>
> On engagement, IRC is useful for reasons already mentioned in this thread
>
> (and we've been fortunate to have some valuable interactions thanks some
>
> core devs having keyword watches setup on OpenStack channels), but I think
>
> we alienate and/or make things too hard for some potential contributors. And
>
> I don't think it makes a great watercooler discussion tool (e.g. no offline
>
> history etc without setting up a bouncer - and that is fairly opaque even
>
> for a CS major).
>
>
>
> Having (myself) done a fairly woeful job of keeping pace with the dev side
>
> of OS progression this cycle I'm also interested in exploring ways of
>
> highlighting activities/work that may be of interest to any particular WG.
>
> The first thing that springs to mind is tagging of blueprints and reviews,
>
> e.g., where a dev or other community member is looking for
>
> input/support/resolution from a specific target user group. This could be a
>
> mechanism we as chairs utilise to surface agenda items, solicit input and
>
> then respond on behalf of the group.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Blair
>
>
>
> On 30 August 2016 at 10:36, David F Flanders <flanders at openstack.org> <flanders at openstack.org> wrote:
>
> Dear Working Group Co-Chairs and User Committee Chairs,
>
>
>
> The logistical tasks of running a WG meeting is by no means trivial,
>
> here a quick list of things which a co-chairs of a WG do on a weekly
>
> basis to run a global meeting:
>
>
>
> a.) mint calendar invitation to all members (subscribe/unsubscribe
>
> members)
>
> b.) call for agenda items via etherpad
>
> c.) update wiki with upcoming meeting and link to etherpad agenda
>
> d.) email user-committee mailing list on when next meeting is
>
> occurring along with agenda links
>
> e.) assure meeting channel is confirmed (irc/phone/etc)
>
> f.) run meeting according to good practices (irc etiquette or well
>
> taken notes if via voice)
>
> g.) post meeting follow up: circulating actions, posting meeting
>
> notes, taking any outstanding queries to the mailing list for
>
> consideration, etc.
>
> h.) follow up actions.
>
> i.) recruit new members
>
> j.) plan for summit meetings
>
> k.) etc etc.
>
>
>
> All of the above are sometimes done twice-over at different times to
>
> help maintain the conversation in different timezones.
>
>
>
> In addition, the groups are still not well attended by as diverse an
>
> audience as OpenStack represents. AsiaPac, Latin America, India and
>
> other massive OpenStack user groups have not yet engaged despite some
>
> of their massive communities.
>
>
>
> One of the recent suggestions has been to converge some of the WGs to
>
> help ease the burden of these logistical tasks.
>
>
>
> Other options include:
>
>
>
> * having a more systematic approach to when WG occur, i.e. agreeing
>
> a set pattern such s a day per fortnight which each WG happens (one
>
> after another).
>
>
>
> * having a shared IRC channel for all WG activity to help create
>
> more water-cooler conversation between chairs?
>
>
>
> * sharing of logistical duties between WG chairs, etc
>
>
>
> Options abound, though discussion much needed!
>
>
>
> Q: Is there any good practice we can draw from? I've been digging
>
> around my old W3C and IETF notes to see what good practice there may
>
> be?
>
>
>
> Discussion/replies greatly appreciated to see if there is any consensus?
>
>
>
> Kind Regards,
>
>
>
> Flanders
>
> --
>
> Blair Bethwaite
>
> Senior HPC Consultant
>
>
>
> Monash eResearch Centre
>
> Monash University
>
> Room G26, 15 Innovation Walk, Clayton Campus
>
> Clayton VIC 3800
>
> Australia
>
> Mobile: 0439-545-002
>
> Office: +61 3-9903-2800
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> User-committee mailing list
>
> User-committee at lists.openstack.org
>
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/user-committee <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.openstack.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_user-2Dcommittee&d=DQMCaQ&c=DS6PUFBBr_KiLo7Sjt3ljp5jaW5k2i9ijVXllEdOozc&r=G0XRJfDQsuBvqa_wpWyDAUlSpeMV4W1qfWqBfctlWwQ&m=lZwtjVJEK6mz-i3EKQC5l7oI-aZ_HJZpsoOkkcQucUY&s=3D6ClNkDvvSvr60CHILSGjjv8SpgmIxfgPGC1PqxY-0&e=>
>
> David F Flanders
>
> August 29, 2016 at 7:36 PM
>
> Dear Working Group Co-Chairs and User Committee Chairs,
>
>
>
> The logistical tasks of running a WG meeting is by no means trivial,
>
> here a quick list of things which a co-chairs of a WG do on a weekly
>
> basis to run a global meeting:
>
>
>
> a.) mint calendar invitation to all members (subscribe/unsubscribe members)
>
> b.) call for agenda items via etherpad
>
> c.) update wiki with upcoming meeting and link to etherpad agenda
>
> d.) email user-committee mailing list on when next meeting is
>
> occurring along with agenda links
>
> e.) assure meeting channel is confirmed (irc/phone/etc)
>
> f.) run meeting according to good practices (irc etiquette or well
>
> taken notes if via voice)
>
> g.) post meeting follow up: circulating actions, posting meeting
>
> notes, taking any outstanding queries to the mailing list for
>
> consideration, etc.
>
> h.) follow up actions.
>
> i.) recruit new members
>
> j.) plan for summit meetings
>
> k.) etc etc.
>
>
>
> All of the above are sometimes done twice-over at different times to
>
> help maintain the conversation in different timezones.
>
>
>
> In addition, the groups are still not well attended by as diverse an
>
> audience as OpenStack represents. AsiaPac, Latin America, India and
>
> other massive OpenStack user groups have not yet engaged despite some
>
> of their massive communities.
>
>
>
> One of the recent suggestions has been to converge some of the WGs to
>
> help ease the burden of these logistical tasks.
>
>
>
> Other options include:
>
>
>
> * having a more systematic approach to when WG occur, i.e. agreeing
>
> a set pattern such s a day per fortnight which each WG happens (one
>
> after another).
>
>
>
> * having a shared IRC channel for all WG activity to help create
>
> more water-cooler conversation between chairs?
>
>
>
> * sharing of logistical duties between WG chairs, etc
>
>
>
> Options abound, though discussion much needed!
>
>
>
> Q: Is there any good practice we can draw from? I've been digging
>
> around my old W3C and IETF notes to see what good practice there may
>
> be?
>
>
>
> Discussion/replies greatly appreciated to see if there is any consensus?
>
>
>
> Kind Regards,
>
>
>
> Flanders
>
>
>
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>
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>
> _______________________________________________
> User-committee mailing list
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>
>


-- 
Flanders | OpenStack Foundation | Community Manager (Cloud Application
Communities)
http://superuser.openstack.org/articles/meet-openstack-s-community-wrangler-david-flanders
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