<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 6:43 PM, Monty Taylor <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mordred@inaugust.com" target="_blank">mordred@inaugust.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On 05/11/2013 05:48 PM, Anne Gentle wrote:<br>
<div class="im">><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 3:12 PM, Monty Taylor <mordred@inaugust..com<br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:mordred@inaugust.com">mordred@inaugust.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 05/11/2013 04:07 PM, Asher Newcomer wrote:<br>
> > Or even better, just continue to call it openstack networking. The<br>
> code<br>
> > names only serve to confuse the uninitiated. They needlessly<br>
> steepen the<br>
> > learning curve and slow uptake.<br>
><br>
> The problem with OpenStack Networking (or getting rid of codenames) is<br>
> seen with pre-incubation->incubation->integrated cycle.<br>
><br>
> A project cannot call itself "OpenStack Foo" until it actually _is_<br>
> openstack foo. So any new project by necessity has to start off as<br>
> something else.<br>
><br>
> But - if we then require them to drop that name and become openstack foo<br>
> when they become incubated or integrated, then we've got what's become a<br>
> stable project with a decent amount of contributors renaming itself.<br>
><br>
> Every. Time.<br>
><br>
> The code names aren't just cute. I kind of wish they were, because it<br>
> would make several things much easier if we could just ditch them and do<br>
> a pure openstack. code namespace. But the reality is that it gets really<br>
> really tricky to deal with a bunch of things if they go away.<br>
><br>
><br>
> I told Monty and the TC this at the Summit (sorry I couldn't attend the<br>
> session about code names).<br>
<br>
</div>I promise, it wasn't the world's most fun session. :)<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>I'm sure. :) I think I don't have much regret but do feel sorry that I don't know more. </div><div>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="im"><br>
> I find this trickiness a weak argument in the<br>
> face of the invented names that are getting to be as bad as U.S.<br>
> pharmaceuticals. Plus it forces us to put a "lookup" table in the docs<br>
> forever. [1] Let's find a process for naming that meets a few reqs:<br>
> - describes the service<br>
> - goes through a legal review<br>
> - enables new eyes to understanding it by reading the English word that<br>
> the service represents (that can be translated into a meaningful word in<br>
> other languages)<br>
<br>
</div>I don't think it's a weak argument at all. There are real technical issues.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>The technical issues, to me, and I may be missing something, are when the name is used as:</div><div style>- service/daemon name</div><div style>- command/CLI name</div><div style>
<br></div><div style>You can use any pet name you want for your team and project while addressing technical issues some other way? </div><div style><br></div><div style>Here's another way I'm looking at the naming autonomy/process. Why incubate? </div>
<div style>- you get to pick your cool name</div><div style>OR</div><div style>- you get access to infrastructure, tools, events, community, and branding that is OpenStack</div><div style><br></div><div style>The naming can't be THAT crucial. I get that we want projects to be fun to work on. But it can't be just the naming that brings the fun.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>I think you believe I have some strict naming process in mind, so I'm trying to explain my position more. </div><div style><br></div><div style>It's more that I believe we can have team/project names without naming technical things (repositories, CLIs) with that "cool/fun" name.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Go with kumquat, but don't call the CLI kumquat. Call your team kumquat and your repo kumquat. </div><div style><br></div><div style> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
That assumes that OpenStack is involved with the project pre-incubation.<br>
That's was the case with Quantum and Ceilometer and Ironic. On the other<br>
hand, the heat folks had <a href="http://heat-api.org" target="_blank">heat-api.org</a> and a heat github org and other<br>
things before they started down the stackforge road. Looking right now<br>
at non-incubated projects just off the top of my head:<br>
<br>
Libra is an LBaaS solution that was started on stackforge and which it's<br>
increasingly unlikely will go to incubation rather than just atttempt to<br>
merge stuff in with Quantum LBaaS. Moniker is a DNSaaS that hasn't<br>
applied for incubation, might do so, but as of right now has been around<br>
for almost a year yet has no formal relationship with OpenStack.<br>
healthnmon may or may not be an incubation candidate.<br>
<br>
Before that, reddwarf was not-incubated for pretty much the entire time<br>
OpenStack has existed until just now.<br>
<br>
All of these things have had to have lifecycles during a period of time<br>
before they have any interaction with us formally.<br>
<br>
On the other hand, if we did checking pre-incubation, we'd be in a very<br>
odd position of granting permission/blessing/tentative interest in<br>
projects before they come close to sorting things out. Moniker is great,<br>
but 6 months ago there were as many as 4 different DNSaaS possibilities.<br>
<br>
In any case, I don't think there is any way that we can, become directly<br>
involved in projects before they are incubated.<br>
<br>
Stackforge helps already, in that moniker is stackforge/moniker rather<br>
than openstack/moniker. But neither has any effect on the fact that<br>
there is a directory named "moniker" in moniker repository. If we go<br>
with 'descriptive' names, then there are two choices:<br>
<br>
a) moniker starts life with a directory structure underneath<br>
openstack/dns inside of its repository, even though it is not an<br>
openstack project.<br>
<br>
b) moniker starts life with a moniker directory, and then when<br>
incubated, renames that directory from moniker to openstack/dns.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Yeah I'm not too concerned with repository names, though I do understand the need for uniqueness there. We incubate for a reason, to experiment a bit. In that experimentation I hope projects are considering their users.</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
We can't stop anybody from doing (a) of course, but let me tell you -<br>
you wanna talk about confusing and bad messaging - we had apt repos at<br>
the beginning of the project with giant letters on them "FOR TESTING<br>
ONLY" but because they had our name on them people assumed we supported<br>
them.<br>
<br>
(b) sound easy, until you reckon with things like line-wrapping changes,<br>
sort order changes, and client library/API consumption changes. If<br>
something is using python-monikerclient and thus the monikerclient<br>
namespace of the API, that person would have to port their code to now<br>
do something like openstack.dns.client or similar.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>I totally get how hard the CLI work is. But what I don't get is why a unique name that is meaningless is so valuable? </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
Even ignoring people who may have already been using the code (many of<br>
these things start life as a service by one of our member companies and<br>
then enters incubation when it's become baked a little bit - reddwarf<br>
was in production at RAX and HP before it got incubated, moniker is in<br>
production at HP, etc) and just focusing on our own code base, the<br>
massive undertaking that it is to change the name of the project inside<br>
of the project is daunting enough that we're still talking about it for<br>
Quantum.<br>
<br>
Don't get me wrong - I totally hear you on the matrix of what-does-what,<br>
and obviously there are legal naming issues- I'm not trying to be<br>
insensitive to them - this is a crap position to be in. But so far, I<br>
haven't heard an actual proposal on how we deal with a model other than<br>
our current one - and when I say that, I mean a _detailed_ plan that<br>
takes in to account all of the various things we know right now that we<br>
will run in to. How do we do X, and then how do we deal with Y and what<br>
is the process and timing we use to deal with Z. We have a massively<br>
complex project, and as much as I would like for this question to be<br>
simpler in its solution, it simply is not.<br>
<br>
At the moment, absent a concrete proposal for the process change that<br>
would necessarily ensue from ditching code names, I believe we're stuck<br>
in the not-great but not-any-worse-than-current situation of having<br>
potentially infringing names. For our current names, well, we're dealing<br>
with that as best we can. For future incubation requests, we are now<br>
raising the name as a question - which means that we can tell people<br>
that we are going to be doing that, which means that projects that are<br>
not careful and do not pick a trademark friendly name may have to go<br>
through a rename if they hit a problem ... but it's also possible with<br>
care that renames can be avoided.<br>
<div class="im"><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>I'd love to work on a concrete proposal (thanks to Davanum for the podling page, that's useful). I'm okay with digging into the work we have to do here as it has worthwhile outcomes. </div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">
> If we have to preface with Stackforge to indicate pre-incubation, that's<br>
> fine. Use Incubating or some such to indicate incubation. Meaningful<br>
> words have meaning.<br>
<br>
</div>Once it's incubating, it's in our world - we, as a body, have made a<br>
choice that it's a thing we want to be involved with, pending the<br>
technical things working out. I don't think we have any deficiencies<br>
there at the moment.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> I acknowledge we still have to indicate what commands, daemon names, and<br>
> so on are related to a particular service. That issue is also fixable<br>
> with some resources and effort and pays off in easier adoption and<br>
> understanding.<br>
<br>
</div>It's entirely possible that after all of that text above, we are talking<br>
about completely different things when we talk about naming here. I love<br>
meta discussions...<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Does some further explanation help? Yours is so nice and eloquent, I feel a bit intimidated. :) It's not that I'm backing off either, but trying to get to the heart of my concerns/questions with naming. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Thanks for the meta Monty!</div><div>Anne </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
> 1.. <a href="http://docs.openstack.org/grizzly/openstack-compute/install/yum/content/terminology-codenames.html" target="_blank">http://docs.openstack.org/grizzly/openstack-compute/install/yum/content/terminology-codenames.html</a><br>
<div class="im">><br>
><br>
><br>
> > On May 11, 2013 3:59 PM, "Davanum Srinivas" <<a href="mailto:davanum@gmail.com">davanum@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:davanum@gmail.com">davanum@gmail.com</a>><br>
</div><div class="im">> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:davanum@gmail.com">davanum@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:davanum@gmail.com">davanum@gmail.com</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Lattice<br>
> ><br>
> > -- dims<br>
> ><br>
> > On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Mark Turner <<a href="mailto:mark@amerine.net">mark@amerine.net</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:mark@amerine.net">mark@amerine.net</a>><br>
</div><div class="im">> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:mark@amerine.net">mark@amerine.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:mark@amerine.net">mark@amerine.net</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> > > Tubes<br>
> > ><br>
> > > ;-)<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Jason Smith<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:jason.smith@rackspace.com">jason.smith@rackspace.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jason.smith@rackspace.com">jason.smith@rackspace.com</a>><br>
</div>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jason.smith@rackspace.com">jason.smith@rackspace.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jason.smith@rackspace.com">jason.smith@rackspace.com</a>>>><br>
<div class="im">> > > wrote:<br>
> > >><br>
> > >> Hello,<br>
> > >> I understand why we had to give up Quantum code name but rather<br>
> > than just<br>
> > >> refer to it as networking let's come up with a new code name!<br>
> > >><br>
> > >> Thoughts?<br>
> > >><br>
> > >> Thanks,<br>
> > >> -js<br>
> > >> _______________________________________________<br>
> > >> Mailing list: <a href="https://launchpad.net/~openstack" target="_blank">https://launchpad.net/~openstack</a><br>
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</div>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.">openstack@lists.launchpad.</a>.net><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net">openstack@lists.launchpad.net</a><br>
<div class="im">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net">openstack@lists.launchpad.net</a>>><br>
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> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > _______________________________________________<br>
> > > Mailing list: <a href="https://launchpad.net/~openstack" target="_blank">https://launchpad.net/~openstack</a><br>
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> <mailto:<a href="mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net">openstack@lists.launchpad.net</a>><br>
</div>> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net">openstack@lists.launchpad.net</a><br>
<div class="im">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net">openstack@lists.launchpad.net</a>>><br>
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> ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > Davanum Srinivas :: <a href="http://davanum.wordpress.com" target="_blank">http://davanum.wordpress.com</a><br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Mailing list: <a href="https://launchpad.net/~openstack" target="_blank">https://launchpad.net/~openstack</a><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>