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On 05/25/2012 07:15 PM, Gabriel Hurley wrote:
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
can’t speak for other use cases as I haven’t directly
investigated them, but to those questions:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Apache
was only an example. Any webserver that uses WSGI (whether
mod_wsgi or otherwise) doesn’t support websockets. As for
pushing to get it into the WSGI standard, there’s already
work in that direction but amending the standard and *<b>then</b>*
getting all the implementations to update, etc. is a LONG
way off.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">If (disclaimer: these are not final details, I’m
just blue-sky throwing out possibilities) we were
implementing websockets for the dashboard via node.js, we
would likely run node.js with socket.io and the “express”
web framework so it acts as its own async server on its own
port. This is a pretty common setup, very lightweight, and
with minimal dependencies. It would run side-by-side with
the traditional webserver (Apache/nginx) for wsgi/python.
This is down the road for Horizon, though.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
This is not a good idea. We already have a proliferation of ports.
This is a SELinux Nightmare: some of these are already owned by
applications other than ours.<br>
<br>
<br>
Websockets does not and should not be run on a separate port. All
of our applications should be able to run on the standard ports of
80 for HTTP and 443 for HTTPS. For websockets, that is ws on 80
and 443 for wss.<br>
<br>
Node.js is a fine architecture, but throwing another server side
language into the pot once the application is already built on
Python is not a sound decision. Now developers need to think in two
languages for server side scripting, and that is not a good idea.<br>
<br>
Don't get me wrong, I've done my share of Javascript: prior to
Openstack, I spent over a year doing straight Javascript
programming for the Web UI for FreeIPA. But that was Client side
Javascript, and I for one would like to limit Javascript's role to
the web browser where we cannot avoid it.<br>
<br>
<br>
Like it or lump it, the server side language for Openstack is
Python. We already have a framework for Event driven programming
there, and we should stick with it. Adding Server side Javascript
into the picture needlessly complicates things.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:BD35DBE010D5B64589500D43F775F2360AA9827D@BY2PRD0510MB376.namprd05.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:27.0pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4
level1 lfo9">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Gabriel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:openstack-bounces+gabriel.hurley=nebula.com@lists.launchpad.net">openstack-bounces+gabriel.hurley=nebula.com@lists.launchpad.net</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:openstack-bounces+gabriel.hurley=nebula.com@lists.launchpad.net">mailto:openstack-bounces+gabriel.hurley=nebula.com@lists.launchpad.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of
</b>Adam Young<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 25, 2012 3:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net">openstack@lists.launchpad.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openstack] Fwd: Nodejs in horizon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We are using Eventlet as a Webserver,
not apache, and Eventlet does have websocket support.<br>
<br>
When using Node.js do we need to run an alternative Server
than the Apache HTTPD for Dashboard?<br>
<br>
We are looking at Websockets issues for noVNC already. One
Potential approach is to use an Apache module for
Websockets: I am aware that mod_wsgi will not handle it.
Perhaps getting websocket support into mod_wsgi is a better
way forward?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 05/25/2012 01:54 PM, Gabriel Hurley wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">To
elucidate a few more points from people’s responses so
far:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:22.5pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2
level1 lfo2">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All
the python socket.io backends are immature projects, and
there’s a GAPING flaw with them all: WSGI (the interface
between web servers and Python) doesn’t support the
handshake features that websocket communication requires.
The WSGI standard was drafted before websockets was a
thing. There’s a gevent lib that supports it, but it’s
also immature and doesn’t play nice with Apache, etc.
Deployment will get *<b>really</b>* iteresting trying to
use socket.io with Python. I’ve tried. ;-)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:22.5pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2
level1 lfo2">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Pypy
*<b>is</b>* fast (I know several of the main contributors)
but it’s as big a decision to use Pypy as it is to use
node, but that only affects performance. It doesn’t make
Django any more suited to real-time communication. Pypy is
also a major new dependency that’s not packaged and it
changes a lot of things. It’s also used by several orders
of magnitude fewer people than node.js currently, so
security there is a whole different concern.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:22.5pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2
level1 lfo2">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Tornado
and Twisted are both non-blocking web servers in Python,
but both projects have serious peculiarities which we
could dive into separately. And ultimately they’re not
tools any of the Horizon contributors I’ve talked to so
far are interested in working with, which in an open
source community is pretty much a death knell for that
solution.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:22.5pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2
level1 lfo2">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">John
P’s point about Javascript already being a core language
used in Horizon is well taken. I get the “server-side
javascript is different” mindset, but language-bashing for
the sake of “I don’t like javascript” is no more helpful
than Python people bashing Ruby. The fact is that
Javascript as a language is extremely similar to Python in
its syntax and construction (I often write my JS to PEP8
standards), and though it’s not as readable as Python
(what is?), there’s no reason JS code is inherently bad.
Bad programmers write bad code. Bad frameworks encourage
bad code. Node.js suffers from neither.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:22.5pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2
level1 lfo2">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m
100% in favor of code-bundling only being a short-term
solution. When a reasonable number of distros package
things like LESS, dropping our bundled version in favor of
a properly-versioned package would be awesome. The fewer
things to maintain the better.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All
the best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:27.0pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo4">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Gabriel</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:openstack-bounces+gabriel.hurley=nebula.com@lists.launchpad.net">openstack-bounces+gabriel.hurley=nebula.com@lists.launchpad.net</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:openstack-bounces+gabriel.hurley=nebula.com@lists.launchpad.net">mailto:openstack-bounces+gabriel.hurley=nebula.com@lists.launchpad.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Postlethwait<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 25, 2012 9:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Simon G.; Jay Pipes<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net">openstack@lists.launchpad.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openstack] Fwd: Nodejs in
horizon</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Hi
Everyone,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Sorry
if I've missed anything below, this thread has
become rather fragmented and messy (at least in my
email clients) but I will try to address the main
points I have seen so far: </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3
level1 lfo7">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Just
so that everyone is aware, the lessc parser
that is bundled in Horizon, while executable,
is NOT a binary. It is, in fact, just a 140
line JS file, you can see the code here: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://review.openstack.org/#/c/7367/4/bin/less/lessc"
target="_blank">https://review.openstack.org/#/c/7367/4/bin/less/lessc</a></span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3
level1 lfo7">
<span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">The
reason I have bundled it within the Horizon
code, as Gabriel mentioned, is to assuage any
version mismatches or install issues with LESS
itself that may arise from having yet another
dependency on top of NodeJS that needs manual
steps to install. Also, the LESS package that
exists for Ubuntu is a year out of date, and
other distributions do not even have packages
for it. I would love if we could rely on the
OS' packages to assuage this dependency, but
we cannot, so this is the simplest and
best-working solution I could think of. It
will be no more difficult to maintain than
jQuery, or Bootstrap, in the Horizon
code-base...</span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3
level1 lfo7">
<span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">As
for distribution support, Node can be
installed on just about anything, see here: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Installing-Node.js-via-package-manager"
target="_blank">https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Installing-Node.js-via-package-manager</a></span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3
level1 lfo7">
<span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">As
to the concerns about "it not being Python" or
"JavaScript has been abused." Well, all I can
say to that is no, it is not Python, and yes,
some developers write terrible
and abusive code with JavaScript. I'm sure I
could find horrid/abusive Python somewhere as
well, but doing so would not preclude our
reasons to use it in OpenStack. Misuse of a
tool is not a reason to fear the tool itself,
if that were so none of us would use any
language, ever. Not to mention, we already use
a ton of JS in Horizon... I'm not introducing
JavaScript to Horizon for the first time or
anything here.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">I'm
sure I've missed some good points, but this
thread is a mess and is difficult to sort
through... :P
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">-John
Postlethwait</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</div>
<div id="divRpF672788">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:openstack-bounces+john.postlethwait=nebula.com@lists.launchpad.net">openstack-bounces+john.postlethwait=nebula.com@lists.launchpad.net</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:openstack-bounces+john.postlethwait=nebula.com@lists.launchpad.net">openstack-bounces+john.postlethwait=nebula.com@lists.launchpad.net</a>]
on behalf of Simon G. [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:semyazz@gmail.com">semyazz@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 25, 2012 7:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jay Pipes<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net">openstack@lists.launchpad.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openstack] Fwd: Nodejs
in horizon</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maybe I've
misuderstood something, but I've tried to give
examples of other backends than node.js which
can make use of mentioned before
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://socket.io" target="_blank">socket.io</a>
and can be used to implement realtime
communication. I just wanted to minimize use
of node.js. Hmm... I'm still talking about
realtime communication, but it was only
mentioned as an example and it's not even
listed as a feature anywhere. So maybe my part
in this topic is pointless. I'll be silent
from now :)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, May 25, 2012 at
3:20 PM, Jay Pipes <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jaypipes@gmail.com"
target="_blank">jaypipes@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 05/25/2012 08:41 AM,
Simon G. wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello,<br>
<br>
I don't want to be rude, but fast research
about point *3c* and sockets<br>
=> PyPi search<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=search&term=socket.io&submit=search"
target="_blank">http://pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=search&term=socket.io&submit=search</a>><br>
<br>
* <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://pypi.python.org/pypi/SocketTornad.IO/"
target="_blank">http://pypi.python.org/pypi/SocketTornad.IO/</a><br>
* <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://pypi.python.org/pypi/TornadIO2/0.0.3"
target="_blank">http://pypi.python.org/pypi/TornadIO2/0.0.3</a>
,<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://github.com/MrJoes/tornadio2"
target="_blank">https://github.com/MrJoes/tornadio2</a><br>
* <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://pypi.python.org/pypi/django-socketio/0.3.3"
target="_blank">http://pypi.python.org/pypi/django-socketio/0.3.3</a><br>
* <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mrjoes.github.com/2011/12/15/sockjs-bench.html"
target="_blank">
http://mrjoes.github.com/2011/12/15/sockjs-bench.html</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
How mature are those projects? I don't
know. I'm not an expert in<br>
python. I'm just trying to find
alternatives to Node.js if almost<br>
everything is in python. I'm just
testing Openstack and right now I'm<br>
trying to add something to nova, but I
really like horizon and if it's<br>
possible, I'd like to avoid node.js. I'm
not a fan of this technology<br>
even if it's popular and fast, because I
just have some doubts about<br>
Javascript and its maintainability.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Hi Simon,<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://socket.io" target="_blank">socket.io</a>
is a Javascript library :) 3 of the 4
projects you reference above use
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://socket.io" target="_blank">socket.io</a>.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
-jay <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Mailing list: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://launchpad.net/%7Eopenstack" target="_blank">https://launchpad.net/~openstack</a><br>
Post to : <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net" target="_blank">openstack@lists.launchpad.net</a><br>
Unsubscribe : <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://launchpad.net/%7Eopenstack" target="_blank">https://launchpad.net/~openstack</a><br>
More help : <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp" target="_blank">https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<i><span style="color:#333333">Semy</span></i>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Mailing list: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://launchpad.net/%7Eopenstack">https://launchpad.net/~openstack</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Post to : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net">openstack@lists.launchpad.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Unsubscribe : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://launchpad.net/%7Eopenstack">https://launchpad.net/~openstack</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>More help : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp">https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Mailing list: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://launchpad.net/~openstack">https://launchpad.net/~openstack</a>
Post to : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net">openstack@lists.launchpad.net</a>
Unsubscribe : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://launchpad.net/~openstack">https://launchpad.net/~openstack</a>
More help : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp">https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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