<html><head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Hi all -<br>
<br>
I'd like to check in to see if we've come to a consensus on the
colocation of the Ops Meetup. Please let us know as soon as possible as
we have to alert our events team.<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
Jimmy<br>
<span>
</span><br>
<blockquote style="border: 0px none;"
cite="mid:CA+NmNoMmN0OdRUgLrXfdTvkBmqbXxLiNG4cXixKzX_U-Sc0myA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;" class="__pbConvHr"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:2px solid #EDF1F4;padding-top:10px;"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mihalis68@gmail.com"
style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;">Chris Morgan</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">March
27, 2018 at 11:44 AM</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><div dir="ltr">Hello Everyone,<div>
This proposal looks to have very good backing in the community. There
was an informal IRC meeting today with the meetups team, some of the
foundation folk and others and everyone seems to like a proposal put
forward as a sample definition of the combined event - I certainly do,
it looks like we could have a really great combined event in September. </div><div><br></div><div>I
volunteered to share that a bit later today with some other info. In
the meanwhile if you have a viewpoint please do chime in here as we'd
like to declare this agreed by the community ASAP, so in particular IF
YOU OBJECT please speak up by end of week, this week.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></div><div>Chris</div></div><div
class="gmail_extra"><br><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div
data-smartmail="gmail_signature" class="gmail_signature">Chris Morgan
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="mailto:mihalis68@gmail.com">mihalis68@gmail.com</a>></div>
</div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>OpenStack-operators
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jon@csail.mit.edu"
style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;">Jonathan Proulx</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">March
23, 2018 at 10:07 AM</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><div>On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at
09:02:48PM -0700, Yih Leong, Sun. wrote:<br>:I support the ideas to try
colocating the next Ops Midcycle and PTG.<br>:Although scheduling could
be a potential challenge but it worth give it a<br>:try.<br>:<br>:Also
having an joint social event in the evening can also help Dev/Ops to<br>:meet
and offline discussion. :)<br><br>Agreeing stongly with Matt and
Melvin's comments about Forum -vs-<br>PTG/OpsMidcycle<br><br>PTG/OpsMidcycle
(as I see them) are about focusing inside teams to get<br>work done
("how" is a a good one word I think). The advantage of<br>colocation is
for cross team questions like "we're thinking of doing<br>this thing
this way, does this have any impacts on your work my might<br>not have
considered", can get a quick respose in the hall, at lunch,<br>or over
beers as Yih Leong suggests.<br><br>Forum has become about coming to
gather across groups for more<br>conceptual "what" discussions.<br><br>So
I also thing they are very distinct and I do see potential benefits<br>to
colocation.<br><br>We do need to watch out for downsides. The concerns
around colocation<br>seemed mostly about larger events costing more and
being generally<br>harder to organize. If we try we will find out if
there is merit to<br>this concern, but (IMO) it is important to keep
both of the<br>events as cheap and simple as possible.<br><br>-Jon<br><br>:<br>:On
Thursday, March 22, 2018, Melvin Hillsman <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mrhillsman@gmail.com"><mrhillsman@gmail.com></a>
wrote:<br>:<br>:> Thierry and Matt both hit the nail on the head in
terms of the very<br>:> base/purpose/point of the Forum, PTG, and Ops
Midcycles and here is my +2<br>:> since I have spoke with both and
others outside of this thread and agree<br>:> with them here as I
have in individual discussions.<br>:><br>:> If nothing else I
agree with Jimmy's original statement of at least giving<br>:> this a
try.<br>:><br>:> On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 4:54 PM, Matt Van Winkle
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mvanwink@rackspace.com"><mvanwink@rackspace.com></a><br>:> wrote:<br>:><br>:>>
Hey folks,<br>:>> Great discussion! There are number of points to
comment on going back<br>:>> through the last few emails. I'll
try to do so in line with Theirry's<br>:>> latest below. From a
User Committee perspective (and as a member of the<br>:>> Ops
Meetup planning team), I am a convert to the idea of co-location, but<br>:>>
have come to see a lot of value in it. I'll point some of that out as I<br>:>>
respond to specific comments, but first a couple of overarching points.<br>:>><br>:>>
In the current model, the Forum sessions are very much about WHAT the<br>:>>
software should do. Keeping the discussions focused on behavior,
feature<br>:>> and function has made it much easier for an
operator to participate<br>:>> effectively in the conversation
versus the older, design sessions, that<br>:>> focused largely on
blueprints, coding approaches, etc. These are HOW the<br>:>>
developers should make things work and, now, are a large part of the
focus<br>:>> of the PTG. I realize it's not that cut and dry, but
current model has<br>:>> allowed for this division of "what" and
"how" in many areas, and I know<br>:>> several who have found it
valuable.<br>:>><br>:>> The other contextual thing to
remember is the PTG was the effective<br>:>> combining of all the
various team mid-cycle meetups that were occurring.<br>:>> The
current Ops mid-cycle was born in that same period. While it's purpose<br>:>>
was a little different, it's spirit is the same - gather a team (in
this<br>:>> case operators) together outside the hustle and bustle
of a summit to<br>:>> discuss common issues, topics, etc. I'll
also point out, that they have<br>:>> been good vehicles in the
Ops community to get new folks integrated. For<br>:>> the purpose
of this discussion, though, one could argue this is just<br>:>>
bringing the last mid-cycle event in to the fold.<br>:>><br>:>>
On 3/21/18, 4:40 AM, "Thierry Carrez" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:thierry@openstack.org"><thierry@openstack.org></a>
wrote:<br>:>><br>:>> Doug Hellmann wrote:<br>:>>
> Excerpts from Tim Bell's message of 2018-03-20 19:48:31 +0000:<br>:>>
>><br>:>> >> Would we still need the same
style of summit forum if we have the<br>:>> >> OpenStack
Community Working Gathering? One thing I have found with<br>:>>
>> the forum running all week throughout the summit is that it
tends<br>:>> >> to draw audience away from other talks
so maybe we could reduce the<br>:>> >> forum to only a
subset of the summit time?<br>:>> ><br>:>> > I
support the idea of having all contributors attend the contributor<br>:>>
> event (and rebranding it to reflect that change in emphasis),
but<br>:>> > it's not quite clear how the result would be
different from the<br>:>> > Forum. Is it just the
scheduling? (Having input earlier in the cycle<br>:>> >
would be convenient, for sure.)<br>:>> ><br>:>>
> Thierry's comment about "work sessions" earlier in the thread seems<br>:>>
> key.<br>:>><br>:>> Right, I think the key
difference between the PTG and Forum is that<br>:>> one<br>:>>
is a work event for engaged contributors that are part of a group<br>:>>
spending time on making OpenStack better, while the other is a
venue<br>:>> for<br>:>> engaging with everyone in our
community.<br>:>><br>:>> The PTG format is really
organized around work groups (whatever their<br>:>> focus is),
enabling them to set their short-term goals, assign work<br>:>>
items and bootstrap the work. The fact that all those work groups are<br>:>>
co-located make it easy to participate in multiple groups, or
invite<br>:>> other people to join the discussion where it
touches their area of<br>:>> expertise, but it's still mostly a
venue for our<br>:>> geographically-distributed workgroups to
get together in person and<br>:>> get<br>:>> work done.
That's why the agenda is so flexible at the PTG, to<br>:>>
maximize<br>:>> the productivity of attendees, even if that
can confuse people who<br>:>> can't<br>:>> relate to any
specific work group.<br>:>><br>:>> Exactly. I know I way
over simplified it as working on the "how", but<br>:>> it's very
important to honor this aspect of the current PTG. We need this<br>:>>
time for the devs and teams to take output from the previous forum
sessions<br>:>> (or earlier input) and turn it into plans for the
N+1 version. While some<br>:>> folks could drift between
sessions, co-locating the Ops mid-cycle is just<br>:>> that -
leveraging venue, sponsors, and Foundation staff support across one,<br>:>>
larger event - it should NOT disrupt the current spirit of the sessions<br>:>>
Theirry describes above<br>:>><br>:>> The Forum format,
on the other hand, is organized around specific<br>:>>
discussion topics where you want to maximize feedback and input. Forum<br>:>>
sessions are not attached to a specific workgroup or team, they are<br>:>>
defined by their topic. They are well-advertised on the event<br>:>>
schedule,<br>:>> and happen at a precise time. It takes
advantage of the thousands of<br>:>> attendees being present
to get the most relevant feedback possible. It<br>:>> allows
to engage beyond the work groups, to people who can't spend<br>:>>
much<br>:>> time getting more engaged and contribute back.<br>:>><br>:>>
Agreed. Again, I over simplified as the "what", but these sessions are<br>:>>
so valuable as the bring dev and ops in a room and focus on what the<br>:>>
software needs to do or the impact (positive or negative) that planned<br>:>>
behaviors might have on Operators and users. To Tim's earlier
question, no<br>:>> I think this change doesn't reduce the need
for Forum sessions. If<br>:>> anything, I think it increases the
need for us to get REALLY good at<br>:>> channeling output from
the Ops mid-cycle in to session topics at the next<br>:>> Summit.<br>:>><br>:>>
The Ops meetup under its current format is mostly work sessions,
and<br>:>> those would fit pretty well in the PTG event
format. Ideally I would<br>:>> limit the feedback-gathering
sessions there and use the Forum (and<br>:>> regional events
like OpenStack days) to collect it. That sounds like a<br>:>>
better way to reach out to "all users" and take into account their<br>:>>
feedback and needs...<br>:>><br>:>> They are largely
work sessions, but independent of the co-location<br>:>>
discussion, the UC is focused on improving the ability for tangible
output<br>:>> to come from Ops mid-cycles, OpenStack Days and
regional meetups - largely<br>:>> in the form of Forum sessions
and ultimately changes in the software. So<br>:>> we, as a
committee, see a lot of similarities in what you just said. I'm<br>:>>
not bold enough to predict exactly how co-location might change the<br>:>>
tone/topic of the Ops sessions, but I agree that we shouldn't expect a
lot<br>:>> of real-time feedback time with devs at the
PTG/mid-summit event (what ever<br>:>> we end up calling it). We
want the devs to be focused on what's already<br>:>> planned for
the N+1 version or beyond. The conversations/sessions at the<br>:>>
Ops portion of the event would hopefully lead to Forum sessions on N+2<br>:>>
features, functions, bug fixes, etc<br>:>><br>:>> Overall, I
still see co-location as a positive move. There will be some<br>:>>
tricky bits we need to figure out between to the "two sides" of the
event<br>:>> as we want to MINIMIZE any perceived us/them between
dev and ops - not add<br>:>> to it. But, the work session
themselves, should still honor the spirit of<br>:>> the PTG and
Ops Mid-cycle as they are today. We just get the added benefit<br>:>>
of time together as a whole community - and hopefully solve a few<br>:>>
logistic/finance/sponsorship/venue issues that trouble one event or the<br>:>>
other today.<br>:>><br>:>> Thanks!<br>:>> VW<br>:>>
--<br>:>> Thierry Carrez (ttx)<br>:>><br>:>>
_______________________________________________<br>:>>
OpenStack-operators mailing list<br>:>>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org">OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org</a><br>:>>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstac">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstac</a><br>:>>
k-operators<br>:>><br>:>><br>:>>
_______________________________________________<br>:>>
OpenStack-operators mailing list<br>:>>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org">OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org</a><br>:>>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators</a><br>:>><br>:><br>:><br>:><br>:>
--<br>:> Kind regards,<br>:><br>:> Melvin Hillsman<br>:>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mrhillsman@gmail.com">mrhillsman@gmail.com</a><br>:> mobile: (832) 264-2646<br>:><br><br>:_______________________________________________<br>:OpenStack-operators
mailing list<br>:OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org<br>:<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators</a><br><br><br></div></div>
<div style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;" class="__pbConvHr"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:2px solid #EDF1F4;padding-top:10px;"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yihleong@gmail.com"
style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;">Yih Leong, Sun.</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">March
22, 2018 at 11:02 PM</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody">I support the ideas to try
colocating the next Ops Midcycle and PTG. Although scheduling could be a
potential challenge but it worth give it a try.<div><br><div>Also
having an joint social event in the evening can also help Dev/Ops to
meet and offline discussion. :)<br><br>On Thursday, March 22, 2018,
Melvin Hillsman <<a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="mailto:mrhillsman@gmail.com">mrhillsman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div>
</div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>OpenStack-operators
mailing list<br><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org">OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org</a><br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators</a><br></div></div>
<div style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;" class="__pbConvHr"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:2px solid #EDF1F4;padding-top:10px;"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mrhillsman@gmail.com"
style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;">Melvin Hillsman</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">March
22, 2018 at 9:08 PM</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><div dir="ltr">Thierry and Matt
both hit the nail on the head in terms of the very base/purpose/point
of the Forum, PTG, and Ops Midcycles and here is my +2 since I have
spoke with both and others outside of this thread and agree with them
here as I have in individual discussions.<div><br></div><div>If nothing
else I agree with Jimmy's original statement of at least giving this a
try.<br><div><div><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>--
<br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" class="gmail_signature"><div
dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div
style="font-size:small"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Kind regards,<br><br>Melvin
Hillsman</div><div dir="ltr"><a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" href="mailto:mrhillsman@gmail.com">mrhillsman@gmail.com</a><br>mobile:
(832) 264-2646<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div></div></div></div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>OpenStack-operators
mailing list<br><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org">OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org</a><br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators</a><br></div></div>
<div style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;" class="__pbConvHr"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:2px solid #EDF1F4;padding-top:10px;"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mvanwink@rackspace.com"
style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;">Matt Van Winkle</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">March
22, 2018 at 4:54 PM</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><div>Hey folks,<br>Great
discussion! There are number of points to comment on going back through
the last few emails. I'll try to do so in line with Theirry's latest
below. From a User Committee perspective (and as a member of the Ops
Meetup planning team), I am a convert to the idea of co-location, but
have come to see a lot of value in it. I'll point some of that out as I
respond to specific comments, but first a couple of overarching points.<br><br>In
the current model, the Forum sessions are very much about WHAT the
software should do. Keeping the discussions focused on behavior,
feature and function has made it much easier for an operator to
participate effectively in the conversation versus the older, design
sessions, that focused largely on blueprints, coding approaches, etc.
These are HOW the developers should make things work and, now, are a
large part of the focus of the PTG. I realize it's not that cut and
dry, but current model has allowed for this division of "what" and "how"
in many areas, and I know several who have found it valuable.<br><br>The
other contextual thing to remember is the PTG was the effective
combining of all the various team mid-cycle meetups that were occurring.
The current Ops mid-cycle was born in that same period. While it's
purpose was a little different, it's spirit is the same - gather a team
(in this case operators) together outside the hustle and bustle of a
summit to discuss common issues, topics, etc. I'll also point out, that
they have been good vehicles in the Ops community to get new folks
integrated. For the purpose of this discussion, though, one could argue
this is just bringing the last mid-cycle event in to the fold. <br><br>On
3/21/18, 4:40 AM, "Thierry Carrez" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:thierry@openstack.org"><thierry@openstack.org></a> wrote:<br><br>
Doug Hellmann wrote:<br> > Excerpts from Tim Bell's message of
2018-03-20 19:48:31 +0000:<br> >><br> >> Would we
still need the same style of summit forum if we have the<br> >>
OpenStack Community Working Gathering? One thing I have found with<br>
>> the forum running all week throughout the summit is that it
tends<br> >> to draw audience away from other talks so maybe we
could reduce the<br> >> forum to only a subset of the summit
time?<br> > <br> > I support the idea of having all
contributors attend the contributor<br> > event (and rebranding it
to reflect that change in emphasis), but<br> > it's not quite
clear how the result would be different from the<br> > Forum. Is
it just the scheduling? (Having input earlier in the cycle<br> >
would be convenient, for sure.)<br> > <br> > Thierry's
comment about "work sessions" earlier in the thread seems<br> >
key.<br> <br> Right, I think the key difference between the PTG
and Forum is that one<br> is a work event for engaged contributors
that are part of a group<br> spending time on making OpenStack
better, while the other is a venue for<br> engaging with everyone in
our community.<br> <br> The PTG format is really organized around
work groups (whatever their<br> focus is), enabling them to set their
short-term goals, assign work<br> items and bootstrap the work. The
fact that all those work groups are<br> co-located make it easy to
participate in multiple groups, or invite<br> other people to join
the discussion where it touches their area of<br> expertise, but it's
still mostly a venue for our<br> geographically-distributed
workgroups to get together in person and get<br> work done. That's
why the agenda is so flexible at the PTG, to maximize<br> the
productivity of attendees, even if that can confuse people who can't<br>
relate to any specific work group.<br> <br>Exactly. I know I way
over simplified it as working on the "how", but it's very important to
honor this aspect of the current PTG. We need this time for the devs
and teams to take output from the previous forum sessions (or earlier
input) and turn it into plans for the N+1 version. While some folks
could drift between sessions, co-locating the Ops mid-cycle is just that
- leveraging venue, sponsors, and Foundation staff support across one,
larger event - it should NOT disrupt the current spirit of the sessions
Theirry describes above<br><br> The Forum format, on the other hand,
is organized around specific<br> discussion topics where you want to
maximize feedback and input. Forum<br> sessions are not attached to a
specific workgroup or team, they are<br> defined by their topic.
They are well-advertised on the event schedule,<br> and happen at a
precise time. It takes advantage of the thousands of<br> attendees
being present to get the most relevant feedback possible. It<br>
allows to engage beyond the work groups, to people who can't spend much<br>
time getting more engaged and contribute back.<br> <br>Agreed.
Again, I over simplified as the "what", but these sessions are so
valuable as the bring dev and ops in a room and focus on what the
software needs to do or the impact (positive or negative) that planned
behaviors might have on Operators and users. To Tim's earlier question,
no I think this change doesn't reduce the need for Forum sessions. If
anything, I think it increases the need for us to get REALLY good at
channeling output from the Ops mid-cycle in to session topics at the
next Summit. <br><br> The Ops meetup under its current format is
mostly work sessions, and<br> those would fit pretty well in the PTG
event format. Ideally I would<br> limit the feedback-gathering
sessions there and use the Forum (and<br> regional events like
OpenStack days) to collect it. That sounds like a<br> better way to
reach out to "all users" and take into account their<br> feedback and
needs...<br> <br>They are largely work sessions, but independent of
the co-location discussion, the UC is focused on improving the ability
for tangible output to come from Ops mid-cycles, OpenStack Days and
regional meetups - largely in the form of Forum sessions and ultimately
changes in the software. So we, as a committee, see a lot of
similarities in what you just said. I'm not bold enough to predict
exactly how co-location might change the tone/topic of the Ops sessions,
but I agree that we shouldn't expect a lot of real-time feedback time
with devs at the PTG/mid-summit event (what ever we end up calling it).
We want the devs to be focused on what's already planned for the N+1
version or beyond. The conversations/sessions at the Ops portion of the
event would hopefully lead to Forum sessions on N+2 features,
functions, bug fixes, etc<br><br>Overall, I still see co-location as a
positive move. There will be some tricky bits we need to figure out
between to the "two sides" of the event as we want to MINIMIZE any
perceived us/them between dev and ops - not add to it. But, the work
session themselves, should still honor the spirit of the PTG and Ops
Mid-cycle as they are today. We just get the added benefit of time
together as a whole community - and hopefully solve a few
logistic/finance/sponsorship/venue issues that trouble one event or the
other today.<br><br>Thanks!<br>VW<br> -- <br> Thierry Carrez (ttx)<br>
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