<div dir="ltr"><div>Google Hangout should work fine! And Carl and I will both be at Linuxcon and together, so we can dial in together. This time should work for us, so thanks for taking us into consideration Mike!<br><br></div>Kyle<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 9:29 AM, Mike Dorman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mdorman@godaddy.com" target="_blank">mdorman@godaddy.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div>Ok, cool. We plan to discuss this during the LDT time slot at 1330-1500 Pacific on Tuesday 8/18. We can have this as the first agenda item so there’s a defined start time for those who are remote.</div>
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<div>I'll take ownership of setting up a hangout (or whatever.) Do people have a preference on what videoconference tool to us? Absent any opinions, I’ll just do a Google Hangout.</div>
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<div>Thanks!</div>
<div>Mike</div>
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<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Kyle Mestery<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 8:09 AM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Ryan Moats<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>Mike Dorman, "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)", OpenStack Operators<div><div class="h5"><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Openstack-operators] [openstack-dev] [Neutron][L3] [Large Deployments Team] Representing a networks connected by routers<br>
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<div dir="ltr">Can you also try to have some sort of remote option? I'd like to attend this, and I'd like Carl to try and attend as well. Thanks!<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Ryan Moats <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:rmoats@us.ibm.com" target="_blank">rmoats@us.ibm.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<p>I will be there for my lightning talk, and I think armax and kevin_benton will be there - it would be good to find some time for us to pow-wow, along with some teleconference so that carl_baldwin and mestery can join in...<br>
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Ryan Moats (regXboi)<br>
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<tt>Mike Dorman <<a href="mailto:mdorman@godaddy.com" target="_blank">mdorman@godaddy.com</a>> wrote on 08/03/2015 10:07:23 PM:<br>
<br>
> From: Mike Dorman <<a href="mailto:mdorman@godaddy.com" target="_blank">mdorman@godaddy.com</a>></tt><br>
<tt>> To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" <br>
> <<a href="mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org" target="_blank">openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org</a>>, OpenStack Operators <openstack-<br>
> <a href="mailto:operators@lists.openstack.org" target="_blank">operators@lists.openstack.org</a>></tt><br>
<tt>> Date: 08/03/2015 10:08 PM</tt><br>
<tt>> Subject: Re: [Openstack-operators] [openstack-dev] [Neutron][L3] <br>
> [Large Deployments Team] Representing a networks connected by routers</tt></p>
<div>
<div><br>
<tt>> <br>
> I hope we can move this idea moving forward. I was disappointed to see <br>
> the spec abandoned.<br>
> <br>
> Some of us from the large deployers group will be at the Ops Meetup. Will <br>
> there be any representation from Neutron there that we could discuss with <br>
> more?<br>
> <br>
> Thanks,<br>
> Mike<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On 8/3/15, 12:27 PM, "Carl Baldwin" <<a href="mailto:carl@ecbaldwin.net" target="_blank">carl@ecbaldwin.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> >Kevin, sorry for the delay in response. Keeping up on this thread was<br>
> >getting difficult while on vacation.<br>
> ><br>
> >tl;dr: I think it is worth it to talk through the idea of inserting<br>
> >some sort of a "subnet group thing" in the model to which floating ips<br>
> >(and router external gateways) will associate. It has been on my mind<br>
> >for a long time now. I didn't pursue it because a few informal<br>
> >attempts to discuss it with others indicated to me that it would be a<br>
> >difficult heavy-lifting job that others may not appreciate or<br>
> >understand. Scroll to the bottom of this message for a little more on<br>
> >this.<br>
> ><br>
> >Carl<br>
> ><br>
> >On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 1:15 AM, Kevin Benton <<a href="mailto:blak111@gmail.com" target="_blank">blak111@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>>Also, in my proposal, it is more the router that is the grouping <br>
> >>>mechanism.<br>
> >><br>
> >> I can't reconcile this with all of the points you make in the rest of <br>
> >>your<br>
> >> email. You want the collection of subnets that a network represents, <br>
> >>but you<br>
> >> don't want any other properties of the network.<br>
> ><br>
> >This is closer to what I'm trying to say but isn't quite there. There<br>
> >are some subnets that should be associated with the segments<br>
> >themselves and there are some that should be associated with the<br>
> >collection of segments. I want floating IPs that are not tied the an<br>
> >L2 network. None of the alternate proposals that I'd heard addressed<br>
> >this.<br>
> ><br>
> >>>that the network object is currently the closest thing we have to<br>
> >>> representing the L3 part of the network.<br>
> >><br>
> >> The L3 part of a network is the subnets. You can't have IP addresses <br>
> >>without<br>
> >> the subnets, you can't have floating IPs without the subnets, etc.<br>
> ><br>
> >You're right but in the current model you can't have IP addresses<br>
> >without the network either which is actually the point I'm trying to<br>
> >make.<br>
> ><br>
> >> A Neutron network is an L2 construct that encapsulates L3 things. By<br>
> >> encapsulating them it also provides an implicit grouping. The routed<br>
> >> networks proposal basically wants that implicit grouping without the<br>
> >> encapsulation or the L2 part.<br>
> ><br>
> >This sounds about right. I think it is wrong to assume that we need<br>
> >an L2 network to encapsulate L3 things. I'm feeling restricted by the<br>
> >model and the insistence that a neutron network is a purely L2<br>
> >construct.<br>
> ><br>
> >>>We don't associate floating ips with a network because we want to arp <br>
> >>>for<br>
> >>> them. You're taking a consequence of the current model and its <br>
> >>>constraints<br>
> >>> and presenting that as the motivation for the model. We do so because <br>
> >>>there<br>
> >>> is no better L3 object to associate it to.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Don't make assumptions about how people use floating IPs now just <br>
> >>because it<br>
> >> doesn't fit your use-case well. When an external network is implemented <br>
> >>as a<br>
> >> real Neutron network (leaving external_network_bridge blank like we <br>
> >>suggest<br>
> >> in the networking guide), normal ports can be attached and can<br>
> >> co-exist/communicate with the floating IPs because it behaves as an L2<br>
> >> network exactly as implied by the API. The current model works quite <br>
> >>well if<br>
> >> your fabric can extend the external network everywhere it needs to be.<br>
> ><br>
> >Yes, "when an external network is implemented as a real Neutron<br>
> >network" all of this is true and my proposal doesn't change any of<br>
> >this. I'm wasn't making any such assumptions. I acknowledge that the<br>
> >current model works well in this case and didn't intend to change it<br>
> >for current use cases. It is precisely that because it does not fit<br>
> >my use case well that I'm pursuing this.<br>
> ><br>
> >Notice that a network marked only as external doesn't allow normal<br>
> >tenants to create ports. It must also be marked shared to allow it.<br>
> >Unless tenants are creating regular ports then they really don't care<br>
> >if arp or anything else L2 is involved because such an external<br>
> >network is meant to give access external to the cloud where L2 is<br>
> >really just an implementation detail. It is the deployer that cares<br>
> >because of whatever infrastructure (like a gateway router) needs to<br>
> >work with it. If the L2 is important, then the deployer will not<br>
> >attempt to use an L3 only network, she will use the same kinds of<br>
> >networks as always.<br>
> ><br>
> >The bad assumption here is that floating IPs need an explicit<br>
> >association with an L2 only construct: tenant's allocate a floating<br>
> >IP by selecting the Neutron network it is recorded in the DB that way.<br>
> >Tenant's aren't even allowed to see the subnets on an external<br>
> >network. This is counter-intuitive to me because I believe that, in<br>
> >most cases, tenants want a floating IP to get L3 access to the world<br>
> >(or a part of it) that is external to Openstack. Yet, they can only<br>
> >see the L2 object? These are the factors that make me view the<br>
> >Neutron network as an L2 + L3 construct.<br>
> ><br>
> >> If you don't want floating IPs to be reachable on the network they are<br>
> >> associated with, then let's stop associating them with a network and <br>
> >>instead<br>
> >> start associating them with a group of subnets from which they allocate <br>
> >>IPs.<br>
> ><br>
> >Okay. I'm willing to take a serious look at this. This isn't merely<br>
> >associating a floating IP with a subnet. The tenant shouldn't need to<br>
> >know about the individual cidrs of the L3 network and wonder if there<br>
> >is some significant difference or "flavor" of each. I think we truly<br>
> >need something that represents the group of subnets as you said.<br>
> ><br>
> >>>If we insist on a new object for the L3 part of a network then I'd say <br>
> >>>we<br>
> >>> had better have an L3 only port to connect to it.<br>
> >><br>
> >> I don't think a new port type is necessary. We can just make the <br>
> >>network ID<br>
> >> nullable for a port to indicate that it isn't attached to a Neutron <br>
> >>network<br>
> >> since it won't be. It would then have a relationship to its associated<br>
> >> subnet via fixed_ips as it does now.<br>
> ><br>
> >Is this really so different from what I'm trying to do with networks?<br>
> >Make the L2 part nullable.<br>
> ><br>
> >>>The subnet is not the L3 object that we're looking for. You may wish it<br>
> >>> were but that does not make it so.<br>
> >><br>
> >> I never said a subnet is what we are looking for. The group of subnets <br>
> >>is<br>
> >> what we seem to be after.<br>
> ><br>
> >Agreed as I stated above.<br>
> ><br>
> >>>Ignoring the forced dependence on L2, the subnets still don't stand <br>
> >>>alone<br>
> >>> to describe just the L3 part, they must be linked to a network to make <br>
> >>>any<br>
> >>> sense.<br>
> >><br>
> >> They don't need to be. If we made the network_id nullable on ports and<br>
> >> subnets, we could still have ports associated with subnets. The network<br>
> >> portion is the L2 portion. You don't want L2 so don't ask for the <br>
> >>network.<br>
> ><br>
> >In your model, should the port be associated with the "group of<br>
> >subnets" at all? I'm not sure I see a need for it to be directly<br>
> >associated but I haven't thought it all the way through.<br>
> ><br>
> >> I understand that we want a way to reference collections of subnets and<br>
> >> create ports that allocate IPs from them. Networks provide that now, but<br>
> >> they imply an L2 domain for the ports, which we don't want. So we are <br>
> >>trying<br>
> >> to change what a network implies for this one special case, which is <br>
> >>going<br>
> >> to have ripple effects everywhere.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Here are some areas where I can already see we will need special-casing:<br>
> >><br>
> >> DHCP agent scheduling - broadcast doesn't work on L3 networks, every <br>
> >>compute<br>
> >> node will need to use the direct tap attachment logic Neil brought up.<br>
> ><br>
> >My proposal only created the ports on the network segments.<br>
> >Admittedly, that is the ugliest part of the proposal but it did<br>
> >obviate the need for DHCP or arp for the port.<br>
> ><br>
> >> DHCP lease generation - a port can't get the normal subnet mask for the <br>
> >>L3<br>
> >> network it's attached to because it would try to ARP for addresses in <br>
> >>the<br>
> >> same subnet, which are actually somewhere else.<br>
> ><br>
> >See above.<br>
> ><br>
> >> Router interface attachment - what happens when a user attaches one<br>
> >> interface to a regular network and one to an L3 network? Before they <br>
> >>were<br>
> >> all L2 networks so it didn't matter, but now none of the ports will be<br>
> >> reachable on the L3 network without route table manipulation.<br>
> >> (or) Router creation - to avoid the above you can have different router<br>
> >> types that can only attach to one or the other.<br>
> ><br>
> >Not sure I'm following here. The ports are all created on the segments.<br>
> ><br>
> >> Every L2 attribute related to networks - we will need logic in the API <br>
> >>that<br>
> >> hides these fields or marks them as invalid and to generate an error if <br>
> >>the<br>
> >> user tries to update them.<br>
> >> Multi-provider segments - We can't let a user add an L3 segment to a <br>
> >>network<br>
> >> with L2 segments (e.g. VXLAN, VLAN). Same goes for the inverse.<br>
> >> Hierarchical port binding - coordinating ToRs for VXLAN+VLAN is l2 <br>
> >>encap. L3<br>
> >> would need route propagation logic instead.<br>
> ><br>
> >All the ports are still connected to L2 network segments so I don't<br>
> >think this is an issue.<br>
> ><br>
> >> Every plugin, service, tool, etc, built on the assumption that a Neutron<br>
> >> network is L2.<br>
> ><br>
> >ok<br>
> ><br>
> >> Port creation - If you aren't doing the full l3 like Neil's proposal, <br>
> >>you<br>
> >> need to intercept port creation requests and schedule the port to one <br>
> >>of the<br>
> >> underlying regular networks. The port then has a different network_id <br>
> >>than<br>
> >> the one requested, or we have more special-casing to hide that.<br>
> ><br>
> >ok, this was called out and I admit it is the ugliest part of the <br>
> >proposal.<br>
> ><br>
> >> All of those will be branches in the codebase to handle current Neutron<br>
> >> networks vs L3 networks. If we go down this route, it will be even worse<br>
> >> than the conditionals we have to support DVR in ML2 because we are <br>
> >>exposing<br>
> >> it via the API. It's technical debt that we will not be able to get rid <br>
> >>of.<br>
> ><br>
> >I don't think it is nearly as bad as you make it out to be.<br>
> ><br>
> >> I would rather see something to reference a group of subnets that can be<br>
> >> used for floating IP allocation and port creation in lieu of a network <br>
> >>ID<br>
> >> than the technical debt that conditionally redefining a network will <br>
> >>bring.<br>
> ><br>
> >I'm willing to discuss this further. In fact, it has been on my mind<br>
> >for a while now. This is essentially where I started. I ended up<br>
> >with my current proposal because I perceived a lot more difficulty in<br>
> >doing this than in the proposal I created. But, your perspective from<br>
> >the other side of the problem is worth considering.<br>
> ><br>
> >I'm glad to see that at least one other person seems to be<br>
> >understanding the problem here. This will have API and end-user<br>
> >impact is it changes the way that end users interact with floating IPs<br>
> >at least. It will also affect the way that neutron routers are<br>
> >associated to a network. Today's use case where a user connects a<br>
> >router to an external network will also change. To what extent do we<br>
> >support backward compatibility for existing work-flows? For example,<br>
> >can a user port an existing work-flow to a cloud where the "external<br>
> >network" is now a group of subnets routed among segments instead of a<br>
> >neutron network?<br>
> ><br>
> >Carl<br>
> ><br>
> >__________________________________________________________________________<br>
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