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On 06/29/15 08:05, Subbu Allamaraju wrote:<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:43ACE382-6401-464C-96B0-50BCDF50EA15@subbu.org"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Pardon me for being blunt, but I’m still confused why cycles are being spent on semantic wrangling. As you rightly point out, the term is subjective, and that’s the point.
Is there a fear a single set of tags that include both dev and operational aspects confuse consumers of OpenStack? Please clarify.
Thanks
Subbu
</pre>
</blockquote>
Specifically after the impression I got from the last meeting was
that the foundation envisioned these to be one and the same and not
differentiate between ops-tags and tags.<br>
<br>
A quick copy and paste of some pieces from the log from the last
meeting [1]<br>
<br>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 1; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="tm" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32);">14:25:40</span><span class="nk" style="color: rgb(6, 40, 115); font-weight: bold;"> <lsell></span> <span class="hi" style="color: rgb(64, 112, 160);">maishk:</span> i don't think the naming is honestly that important, i think what's important is if the data produced by tc and uc will be displayed together, basically two groups contributing information to a single program, or if they will just be separate programs
<span class="tm" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32);">14:25:53</span><span class="nk" style="color: rgb(6, 40, 115); font-weight: bold;"> <lsell></span> and where each would live, and how we would explain why you would look at one or the other
<span class="tm" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32);">14:26:26</span><span class="nk" style="color: rgb(6, 40, 115); font-weight: bold;"> <maishsk></span> lsell - do you think they are a single program at the moment (I am finding it difficult to see it that way)
<span class="tm" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32);">14:26:39</span><span class="nk" style="color: rgb(6, 40, 115); font-weight: bold;"> <ttx></span> <span class="hi" style="color: rgb(64, 112, 160);">maishsk:</span> :)
<span class="tm" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32);">14:26:52</span><span class="nk" style="color: rgb(6, 40, 115); font-weight: bold;"> <lsell></span> that was my original understanding, we would have a tags program and have different groups in the community contribute information based on their expertise/experience
<span class="tm" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32);">14:27:06</span><span class="nk" style="color: rgb(6, 40, 115); font-weight: bold;"> <lsell></span> but it's sounding more and more like two separate programs, which is disappointing
</pre>
Personally, to me it does not make a difference what they are
called, as long as the information that is provided from these tags
is useful, and seen as part of OpenStack.<br>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
(and forgive me for beating this drum to death - but it does show
that there are two distinct different communities, with different
ways of thinking and different ways of doing things.<br>
I do wish that both sides of the fence would be more open to
acceptance of the other. To me it looks a bit like that acceptance
is mostly more of a one way street, Operators willing to accept and
adopt the Development way of doing things. I would have hoped (and
liked) to see some more cooperation in the opposite direction)<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:43ACE382-6401-464C-96B0-50BCDF50EA15@subbu.org"
type="cite">
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<pre wrap="">On Jun 19, 2015, at 2:22 AM, Thierry Carrez <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:thierry@openstack.org"><thierry@openstack.org></a> wrote:
Hi!
As promised in the Tags meeting, I bring the discussion on naming to the
list.
The OpenStack project structure reform that the Technical Committee
drove over the past year introduced two concepts. The first one is the
"big tent", the idea that we should consider as "OpenStack projects" all
the projects produced by the OpenStack Community in the OpenStack Way
and furthering the OpenStack Mission. But as we expand and cover more
projects, the picture becomes more confusing to the consumers of this
ecosystem. Hence the introduction of a second concept: "tags" providing
clear, actionable information about each project.
Tags are a class of metadata[1], a controlled vocabulary of labels. They
come with a definition, a set of requirements that a project must
fulfill to be granted the label. Ideally the requirements are objective,
based on available documentation and metrics. But the tag definition
itself remains subjective.
[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_%28metadata%29">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_%28metadata%29</a>
As an example, we wanted to provide actionable information about the
long-term survivability of a project to the loss of a given corporate
sponsor. We defined a team:diverse-affiliation tag, based on a set of
contributor demographics requirements, evaluated using Stackalytics
metrics. A project meeting the criteria gets the tag. A project not
meeting the criteria doesn't get the tag. A simple, binary label, this
is what tags are.
At the mid-cycle meetup we engaged with the Ops community to get them
involved in the definition of operational tags. But as the workgroup
started to work, it focused on defining and providing operational data
about each project. The state of docs. The state of packaging. The state
of deployment. The concepts being defined, and the nature of the data
being built, was quite different from tags. It looked more like
structured documentation than like labels.
Then yesterday I had a revelation. Tags are a second-order construct.
You can't define tags or labels out of the blue. You can only define
them using existing metrics or documentation as base data. On the
development side, we have plenty of data available, so we jumped
directly to defining tags. On the operational side though, the base data
still needs to be built. It is extremely valuable data. And it is a
prerequisite for any operational label.
As an example, take the state of packaging (currently proposed under
ops:packaged). Which components are packaged ? What is the quality of
that packaging ? There is no clear data on it so far, it needs to be
gathered and maintained. If we ever want to define a "well-packaged"
label, we need that information gathered and available.
So I would like to take a step back and really consider ops-data and
tags as two separate, but complementary concepts. Operational data about
projects is a necessary first step if we ever want to define operational
tags. You should definitely not limit yourself to the tag framework, and
define the best ways to gather and convey that information. As a second
step, someone may propose tags based on that operational data (I have a
few ideas there already), but that is really a second step.
That doesn't mean we can't display operational data on the official
website describing projects. If the Foundation staff sees value in
displaying that information on <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.openstack.org">www.openstack.org</a>, it can certainly be
displayed, in parallel to the labels/tags.
In conclusion, I'd like to suggest that you find an better name to
describe this operational data about projects, because calling them
"tags" or "labels" will be confusing in this two-step picture. My
personal suggestion would be ops-data, but I don't really care which
color you paint that bikeshed (as long as it's not blue!).
Thanks for reading so far, hoping we can work within the same framework
to communicate the best information to all the consumers of our ecosystem.
--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
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[1]
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ops_tags/2015/ops_tags.2015-06-18-14.03.log.html">http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ops_tags/2015/ops_tags.2015-06-18-14.03.log.html</a><br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Best Regards,<br>
Maish Saidel-Keesing</div>
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