[Openstack-operators] A Hypervisor supporting containers

Tom Fifield tom at openstack.org
Fri May 2 13:43:19 UTC 2014

Do you run an OpenStack cloud?

Do you occasionally experience Primal Screams of Rage against OpenStack?

Do you wonder where the padded cells developers live are located?

If so, the User Committee needs you!

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and also, attend this: 

and these: http://junodesignsummit.sched.org/?s=Dev%2FOps,

and perhaps particularly this: 

(A more serious reply might come later, after some sleep ^_^)

On 02/05/14 20:47, Narayan Desai wrote:
> <This ended up being a bit of a primal scream -- I am writing this from
> a position of concern about the strategy that openstack is taking>
> tl;dr: openstack is starting to feel like a tv show called "when
> developers attack"
> The openstack dev community is starting to feel more and more like
> software engineering fundamentalists. Testing is important. But frankly,
> there are a bunch of things that are as or more important. And matter
> much more to people that want to run, not just develop the software.
> We've seen features proposed for removal (not just in nova) because of
> lack of testing coverage. Features that have been integrated for years,
> that we've been using in production *for years without any problems*.
> Getting new code integrated is a nightmare. Take a look at this:
> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/65113/
> for an example. You have a well established member of the openstack
> community, proposing code for a set of features that everyone wants
> (uniform integration of storage across glance, ephemeral storage, and
> cinder using ceph), and it gets blocked because devstack isn't up to
> snuff. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
> Feedback from operators is regularly ignored in favor of clean (though
> clearly flawed) software architecture. There was a large discussion
> recently here about the fundamental flaws is the quota system, as
> currently designed. We chimed in, along with Tim Bell, Jay Pipes, and a
> few other people. It was one of the more detailed discussions that we've
> had here, and I thought did a good job of capturing issues. When these
> issues were brought up on IRC with nova devs, we got the response they
> couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread on operators, and several
> people continued to argue that we didn't need what we said we needed for
> quite some time. I'm not saying that operators should be deferred to in
> all areas here, but we do understand how the system works in practice
> and at scale quite a bit better than the developers.
> The feedback loops from users/ops continue to be broken. Tim's efforts
> on behalf of the user committee are important steps in the right
> direction, but the developer culture is openstack culture in a deep way.
> Operators continue to be on the outside.
> As another illustration of this, I was contacted a few months ago by
> developers interested in scheduling. Now, I have a lot of experience in
> scheduling, and have done research in the area for the last 10 years, so
> this is a good start. So, they are interested in breaking scheduling out
> to its own project. This may or may not be a good idea; taking that
> approach makes some things easier, like coordination of strategies, but
> comes at a higher coordination cost. Having worked through this
> transition with a different scheduler, i don't think this is a decision
> you make lightly. At any rate, they were looking for a person to push
> the effort forward, which would consist of 3-6 months of refactoring to
> get the code into a better state. This might sound basically reasonable,
> but any discussion of gap analysis was completely missing. The state of
> the scheduling (placement, actually, not scheduling really) is pretty
> underwhelming, and causes us operational problems all of the time, but
> that isn't on the radar. These guys had the best of intentions, are
> operating with a different set of incentives and experiences that cause
> them to prioritize things in a way that unintentionally clashes with ops
> folks. I understand why this happens, but it is unclear how to fix it.
> To be clear, I don't think that there is any bad intent here, but the
> differences in goals, experiences, and incentives means this problem
> isn't going to fix itself. Devs need to make sure they maintain code
> quality, and have a reasonable immune system to protect from bad code
> and ideas. We just need to make sure we don't develop the process
> equivalent of lupus.
> Case in point. In the absence of a budget, unit testing is better than
> not, but integration testing ends up being more important in my
> experience. The thing that trumps both of them is real experience in
> actual large scale systems. Problems there will never be adequately
> captured by either of those processes. Making huge investments in the
> first two venues as gating criteria while doing the third informally
> seems like an overemphasis of the wrong things to me.
>   -nld
> On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 1:13 AM, Michael Still <mikal at stillhq.com
> <mailto:mikal at stillhq.com>> wrote:
>     On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 2:32 PM, matt <matt at nycresistor.com
>     <mailto:matt at nycresistor.com>> wrote:
>      > I am all for enforcing CI.  But, my understanding of the workflow
>     is code
>      > doesn't go in without unit tests.  Frankly you guys removing
>     sections of
>      > code for not having proper unit testing is downright terrifying.
>       Doubly so
>      > when it's major feature sets.
>     You are misunderstanding what we mean by CI in this case. We have unit
>     tests (although the coverage isn't always great, but its pretty much
>     on par with every other software project), but what we're talking
>     about here is tempest tests -- which are scenario tests. Things like
>     does booting a virtual machine actually work. Does getconsolelog()
>     actually return a console. etc etc.
>     We're raising the bar on testing. That's always a good thing. Worrying
>     about what we had in the past doesn't really help, because there's
>     nothing I can do about that.
>     Michael
>     --
>     Rackspace Australia
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