<div class="socmaildefaultfont" dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10.5pt" ><div dir="ltr" >Akihiro,</div>
<div dir="ltr" > </div>
<div dir="ltr" ><div>You've made several good points. Most specifically, out of respect for the translator's schedules we are willing to make these contributions later, if desired by the language team. I've tried to make it clear that each language team can indicate if they would like to have these contributions or not (that was always my intent).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think you are correct that uploading PO files is not a first-rate method of participating in the community translation process. It bypasses any discussion of consistent terminology and sidesteps coordination. I think it's appropriate in this case only because we are contributing translations where the community has incomplete translations and on projects the translation community has (generally) not been focused on.</div>
<div><br>Doug</div>
<blockquote data-history-content-modified="1" style="border-left:solid #aaaaaa 2px; margin-left:5px; padding-left:5px; direction:ltr" >----- Original message -----<br>From: Akihiro Motoki <amotoki@gmail.com><br>To: Ying Chun Guo <guoyingc@cn.ibm.com><br>Cc: Douglas Fish/Rochester/IBM@IBMUS, Clark Boylan <cboylan@sapwetik.org>, "openstack-i18n@lists.openstack.org" <openstack-i18n@lists.openstack.org><br>Subject: Re: [Openstack-i18n] IBM translations to contribute<br>Date: Tue, Sep 15, 2015 9:27 AM<br>
<div dir="ltr" >Hi,
<div> </div>
<div>Generally speaking, I welcome *THIS* IBM contributions,</div>
<div>but I have some concerns on doing this at this stage.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Each translation team has their own translation guideline and</div>
<div>it may be different from IBM guideline.</div>
<div>The guideline should be discussed openly.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The second point is the limitation of time to review. Most translators and coordinators</div>
<div>are busy translating strings for Liberty, and they don't have enough time to review more.</div>
<div>It depends on a situation of each language team.</div>
<div>A final decision should be delegated to each language team. Some language team</div>
<div>may accept IBM contributions for Liberty, but some team may defer them to Mitaka.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>On the other hand, I am not a fan to making PO file contribution a general process.</div>
<div>I don't would like to encourage to push whole PO files to the community.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Why don't you make translation in the upstream?</div>
<div>There are several reasons.</div>
<div>- There are other translators in our community and PO file translation leads to</div>
<div> translation conflict. We should avoid duplicated work.</div>
<div>- Translation guideines. I believe existing language teams have some guidelines</div>
<div> for terminologies, which may be different from a company guideline.</div>
<div> Pushing whole PO files may force translators to review bursty and</div>
<div> if there is a mismatch in guidelines not a small number of efforts need to be changed.</div>
<div>- Reviews and discussions should happen openly in a language team.</div>
<div> A translation guideline in a company may be different from one of the community.</div>
<div> In such case, internal reviews contribute less.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Akihiro</div>
<div> </div></div>
<div>
<div>2015-09-12 3:00 GMT+09:00 Ying Chun Guo <span dir="ltr" ><<a href="mailto:guoyingc@cn.ibm.com" target="_blank" >guoyingc@cn.ibm.com</a>></span>:
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex" ><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Hi, all</font><br><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >I have talked with Clark, Doug, and some translators today.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >As a summary, here are my understanding to the current situation.</font><br><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >1. Translators welcome IBM contributions because that </font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >could help to lessen the translation efforts.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >2. IBM contributions have to go through the formal translation</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >process, including: translating in Zanata (although offline and then upload), </font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >being reviewed by reviewers, being pulled from Zanata, being reviewed </font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >in Gerrit, and passing the testing, before it gets merged finally.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >3. Zanata doesn't support to pull reviewed and approved translations.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >All translations except rejected translations, even not reviewed translations, will be pulled. </font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >4. Because IBM contributions are a batch of translations, translators might not have enough time</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >to review one by one. Some translation team may want to do a pre-review before the po files </font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >are uploaded to Zanata.</font><br><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >The key point is how to do the pre-review.</font><br><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Based on all the feedback I collected today, there are several options.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Option #1: Pre-review in a private github repo.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >This one is not good because it's private, not public.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Option #2: Pre-review in Gerrit</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >The good thing is that it's public and under Openstack governance.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >The bad thing is that it'll take draft translations to developers' sight.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Developers may get confused when they see the translation patch.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >What's more, messages in IBM's po files might in a different order, which makes the </font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >comparing with existing po files difficult.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Option #3: Pre-review in Zanata by taking the advantages of version.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Create a new version in Zanata, named as ibm-translation.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Ask IBM to upload po files there.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Translators could review in the web UI, or review offline by downloading the po files.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Translators make comments or updates through Zanata. </font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >IBM make improvement based on the comments.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >When translators are OK with IBM translations, merge these two versions.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Option #4: No pre-review at all</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Some translation teams don't mind it much as long as it covers only the missing areas </font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >of existing translation.</font><br><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >I think, #3 is the best one.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >I have made a test in Zanata test server.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >I created a new version of Nova, see: </font><a href="https://translate-dev.openstack.org/iteration/view/nova/ibm-translation" target="_blank" ><font face="sans-serif" color="blue" size="2" >https://translate-dev.openstack.org/iteration/view/nova/ibm-translation</font></a><font face="sans-serif" size="2" > </font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >I asked IBM to upload the Italian translations of document "nova".</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >You could see the percentage increase to 90%, while in master version the percentage is still 37%.</font><br><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >As translation team becomes more and more popular,</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >there would be more people (or company) who want to contribute their </font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >translations in po files. I want to create a formal process for those</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >who want to contribute translations in batch.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >So I would like to collect your feedback to option #3.</font><br><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >@ Team coordinators, let me know what do you want to check in pre-review, and whether using Zanata version</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >could support you well.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >@ Clark and Elizabeth, let me know if you are OK with it from the infrastructure perspective.</font><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >@ Carlos, maybe you could give us good suggestion as a Zanata expert.</font><br><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Thank you all.</font><br><br><font face="sans-serif" size="2" >Best regards<br>Ying Chun Guo (Daisy)</font><br><br><br><tt><font face="" size="3" >Douglas Fish <<a href="mailto:drfish@us.ibm.com" target="_blank" >drfish@us.ibm.com</a>> wrote on 09/10/2015 08:01:11 PM:<br><br>> From: Douglas Fish <<a href="mailto:drfish@us.ibm.com" target="_blank" >drfish@us.ibm.com</a>></font></tt><br><tt><font face="" size="3" >> To: <a href="mailto:openstack-i18n@lists.openstack.org" target="_blank" >openstack-i18n@lists.openstack.org</a></font></tt><br><tt><font face="" size="3" >> Date: 09/10/2015 08:02 PM</font></tt>
<div><div><tt><font face="" size="3" >> Subject: Re: [Openstack-i18n] IBM translations to contribute</font></tt><br><tt><font face="" size="3" >><br>> Clark Boylan <<a href="mailto:cboylan@sapwetik.org" target="_blank" >cboylan@sapwetik.org</a>> wrote on 09/09/2015 08:26:51 PM:<br>><br>> > From: Clark Boylan <<a href="mailto:cboylan@sapwetik.org" target="_blank" >cboylan@sapwetik.org</a>><br>> > To: <a href="mailto:openstack-i18n@lists.openstack.org" target="_blank" >openstack-i18n@lists.openstack.org</a><br>> > Date: 09/09/2015 08:27 PM<br>> > Subject: Re: [Openstack-i18n] IBM translations to contribute<br>> ><br>> > On Wed, Sep 9, 2015, at 02:34 PM, Douglas Fish wrote:<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > Hi i18n Friends,<br>> > ><br>> > > I'm happy to share that we are proceeding with our plan to share our IBM<br>> > > translations with the OpenStack community.<br>> > ><br>> > > To review and follow up on what was shared in the 2015-08-20 i18n team<br>> > > meeting [1]:<br>> > > - We would like to contribute our IBM translations for projects<br>> > > ceilometer,<br>> > > glance, heat, nova, ironic, neutron, cinder, keystone, and swift. Note<br>> > > that<br>> > > Horizon is not in this list because the community has been focused on<br>> > > translating Horizon; I'm concerned there may be excessive terminology<br>> > > conflicts.<br>> > > - We have translations for de es fr it ja ko_KR pt_BR ru zh_CN<br>> > > zh_TW<br>> > > - These contributions are based on our Kilo translations. They have been<br>> > > reviewed and tested.<br>> > > - In order to facilitate an informal review by the translation teams<br>> > > before<br>> > > uploading I've made the translations available at<br>> > > </font></tt><a href="https://github.com/doug-fish/openstack-translations" target="_blank" ><tt><font face="" size="3" >https://github.com/doug-fish/openstack-translations</font></tt></a><tt><font face="" size="3" > . The repository is<br>> > > private. If you'd like access, just share your github id with me via<br>> > > email<br>> > > (<a href="mailto:drfish@us.ibm.com" target="_blank" >drfish@us.ibm.com</a>) or IRC (doug-fish) and I'll give you access.<br>> > > - Segments that have been updated with IBM translations have a comment<br>> > > "Contributed by IBM" added. This is to enable reviewing; I don't expect<br>> > > these comments to remain in Zanata after the upload.<br>> > ><br>> > > At a high level, our process is that we are extracting the existing PO<br>> > > files from Zanata, then using Babel based code to compare our IBM<br>> > > translations with the community ones and filling in any blanks. We've<br>> > > taken<br>> > > care not to overwrite any existing translations.<br>> > ><br>> > > These proposed files are based on what we extracted from Zanata recently<br>> > > (today). Our intent is to run this tooling again after the review period<br>> > > to<br>> > > pick up any community translations that have occurred. I'm aware that<br>> > > translations for Nova are not updated in Zanata yet, but again, I expect<br>> > > to<br>> > > handle this by re-running our tools.<br>> > ><br>> > > I'm working with Thomas Cocozzello (tjcocozz) and Lucas Palm (lapalm) who<br>> > > have coded our tools and scripts to handle this. They are requesting to<br>> > > join the language teams in Zanata so that if there are no concerns noted<br>> > > during the review they can upload translation contributions.<br>> > ><br>> > > I plan to ask Tom and Lucas to upload these files on 2015-09-14 unless<br>> > > there are concerns noted during the reviews.<br>> > ><br>> > > Please let me know if you have questions or concerns!<br>> > ><br>> > > Doug<br>> > ><br>> > > 1.<br>> > > </font></tt><a href="http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_i18n/2015/" target="_blank" ><tt><font face="" size="3" >http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_i18n/2015/</font></tt></a><br><tt><font face="" size="3" >> > openstack_i18n.2015-08-20-13.03.log.html<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > Doug Fish<br>> ><br>> > After reading the meeting log it appears that using a git repo of some<br>> > sort to perform easy diffing was the suggested way to go through this<br>> > process. My only concern with that is these translations are being<br>> > treated in a special manner to the detriment of other contributors that<br>> > have to go through the normal translation process in Zanata (and<br>> > previously Transifex). At the very least current translators may not<br>> > realize that there is a bunch of work done because it is currently<br>> > hidden behind a private Github repo.<br>> ><br>> > My suggestion would be to push these translations into Zanata the same<br>> > way any other translator would. That communicates to other translators<br>> > where to focus both review and translation efforts. And if we need<br>> > better diffing abilities that may make for a good feature request to<br>> > Zanata? (note this is based on my understanding that translations in<br>> > Zanata have to be approved/accepted and I don't think that we should<br>> > bypass that process as all other translators have to go through it).<br>> ><br>> > If that is not feasible for practical reasons my suggestion would be to<br>> > use Gerrit instead of Github and perform the review in the open. This<br>> > way we have record of the reviews and anyone can participate using the<br>> > tools already in use for reviewing git changes by OpenStack. You should<br>> > be able to push changes to various projects updating their .po(t) files<br>> > in order to get the diffs. If you do it atop the current translation<br>> > change proposals in Gerrit you should get the correct diffs out of it.<br>> ><br>> > I know I would personally be a lot more comfortable with this if<br>> > Andreas' could weigh in on it. Maybe we can get his feedback before<br>> > making too many changes? Also, do let me know if the infrastructure team<br>> > can do anything to help IBM contribute upstream first so that we can<br>> > avoid needing to work through special cases like this in the future. If<br>> > there are deficiencies in the system/tooling it would be great to fix<br>> > them.<br>> ><br>> > Clark<br>> ><br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > Openstack-i18n mailing list<br>> > <a href="mailto:Openstack-i18n@lists.openstack.org" target="_blank" >Openstack-i18n@lists.openstack.org</a><br>> > </font></tt><a href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-i18n" target="_blank" ><tt><font face="" size="3" >http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-i18n</font></tt></a></div></div>
<div><div><br><tt><font face="" size="3" >> ><br>><br>> Clark, I think you and I have a lot of agreement about the<br>> translation process. I agree it would be better if contributions<br>> like this could be handled using the normal processes. I had the<br>> same expectation you did that translations had to be approved/<br>> accepted before they were included in the service's git<br>> repositories; I now understand this is not the case. While it's true<br>> that Zanata includes a review feature, this is a post-acceptance<br>> review. Unreviewed translations are included in the exported PO<br>> files. Translation reviews happen at a later time.<br>><br>> As a consumer of translations, it's important that they go through a<br>> process that parallels the process of the code: translations need to<br>> have a review before they are included in the normally exported PO<br>> files, just like code needs to have a review before it gets included<br>> in the git repositories. I understand this will not be an easy<br>> change. Performing reviews will take time, and our translators are<br>> already pressed for time the last few weeks of the release. We'll<br>> need to explore solutions to this problem. We need to make sure we<br>> can get broader participation in the translation process, and<br>> perhaps translations should not be made available until the first<br>> stable fixpack in order to give translators time to complete this work.<br>><br>> Please note that we are not bypassing any features of Zanata. I've<br>> added this informal review in github based on discussion that<br>> occurred in the i18n meeting. If the translation teams found that<br>> there was a terminology or other problem with the translations we<br>> intend to contribute, there is no easy way for them to reject them<br>> all in Zanata. At the end of this informal review, these<br>> translations will be uploaded into Zanata just like any translation<br>> team member could, and the usual processes will all still apply.<br>><br>> Andreas, do you have any concern or further suggestion?<br>> </font></tt></div></div><tt><font face="" size="3" > > Doug_______________________________________________<br>> Openstack-i18n mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:Openstack-i18n@lists.openstack.org" target="_blank" >Openstack-i18n@lists.openstack.org</a><br>> </font></tt><a href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-i18n" target="_blank" ><tt><font face="" size="3" >http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-i18n</font></tt></a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Openstack-i18n mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Openstack-i18n@lists.openstack.org" target="_blank" >Openstack-i18n@lists.openstack.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-i18n" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" >http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-i18n</a><br> </blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div><BR>