<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Agreed, (I didn’t even know that list existed btw). <br><div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; 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<br><div><div>On Jan 15, 2014, at 3:53 AM, Tom Fifield <<a href="mailto:tom@openstack.org">tom@openstack.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">All,<br><br>Passion appreciated, but this thread does not belong on this mailing list.<br><br>Please move it to legal-discuss :)<br><br><br>Regards,<br><br><br>Tom<br><br><br><br><br>On 15/01/14 09:15, Rich Bowen wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite"><br>On 01/14/2014 05:28 PM, Colin McNamara wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">Rich, let me take another real world use case.<br><br>First, let me reiterate. Stating copyright is for the protection of<br>the individual developer as well as the corporations contributing. It<br>elevates visibility of who owns copyright.<br></blockquote><br><blockquote type="cite">*Real world use case - Aptira and Training-Guides*<br><br>Sean and I started a project within Docs a while back. This goals of<br>this project is to provide Open Source training materials to the<br>community. To achieve these goal we used a mix of content included<br>within OpenStack documentation. About halfway through the effort, one<br>of the guides that we used for a large amount of content got<br>refactored, forcing us to pivot.<br><br>Aptira had been participating significantly at that point, and had<br>*contributed their own training programs to the effort. *That<br>corporate contribution of significant content was key to<br>training-guides moving forward. Without a clear a and concise<br>copyright I don’t think it would have been possible.<br><br>Either way, I feel like we are debating a philosophy point vs the<br>legal question that was posed earlier. The action that comes out of<br>this discussion is both guidance from the foundations legal council<br>and the opportunity for someone to submit a talk exploring these items.<br></blockquote><br>I posted the initial email, and it was a matter of philosophy, not of<br>law, from the beginning. So, yes, I hope we are debating philosophy.<br>This was never posed as a legal question. I know how the legalities of<br>it work, and they don't depend, even a little bit, on a in-file<br>copyright statement. You retain copyright whether or not you state this<br>in the .rst file. That's what the Berne Convention says. (Individual<br>jurisdictions vary on years that you have that and other details.<br>Presumably by the time that it expires, anywhere, this particular<br>content will have expired too.)<br><br>I don't understand how your example supports putting copyright<br>statements in the rst files. You have a clear and concise copyright<br>without having your name in the .rst file. It comes from your<br>contributor license agreement with the OpenStack foundation, and the<br>history provided by the git logs.<br><br>Perhaps I've been unclear. My complaint is not with you holding<br>copyright - you hold that copyright, by international law, regardless of<br>what I or anyone else says. My complaint is with a name in a file, which<br>demonstrably contributes to reluctance of new contributors to make<br>changes. The "visibility of who owns copyright" makes contributors feel<br>that they don't have the right to pitch in. I've heard this from newbie<br>contributors, on a dozen projects, for 15 years.<br><br>To be clearer, I don't believe that raising the visibility of a<br>particular contributor or company should be a goal of any Open Source<br>project. It's not about you or me, it's about the community and the<br>project. You want visibility, point to the the Stackalytics site. They<br>have awesome stats there. Or point to the output of 'git blame'. Indeed,<br>whenever it becomes about raising the visibility of a contributor, the<br>whole project suffers, and it becomes harder, not easier, for new folks<br>to enter the project.<br><br>When you contribute that file, you no longer "own" it, even though you<br>have copyright to portions of it. If you want to "own" it, then don't<br>contribute it to an Open Source project. Again, I'm not talking about<br>legalities, I'm talking about philosophy and the *spirit* of Open<br>Source. Sure, legally you might still "own" it in some sense, but if<br>that's what you care about, why are you contributing it?<br><br>So, I ask again, copyright "protects" from what/whom exactly? In the<br>example you gave, what "protection" did it give you? And, specifically,<br>what protection did it give you that it would not have given you,<br>equally, without your name in the .rst file?<br><br>I have considerable experience, myself, with contributing copyrighted<br>content to Open Source projects. In particular, I contributed large<br>portions of my books and company training materials to the Apache httpd<br>documentation. My name isn't in any of those documents, which hasn't<br>hurt the sales of my books, nor did it hurt the sales of my training<br>classes when I was doing that full-time. Nor did it result in my<br>forfeiting my copyright. I still retain copyright on those<br>contributions, but now that they have been modified by dozens of other<br>people it wouldn't be reasonable for me to assert ownership of any of<br>that content - it's a collaborative work now ... as is the example that<br>you cited.<br><br>--<br>Rich Bowen -<a href="mailto:rbowen@redhat.com">rbowen@redhat.com</a><br>OpenStack Community Liaison<br><a href="http://openstack.redhat.com/">http://openstack.redhat.com/</a><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Openstack-docs mailing list<br>Openstack-docs@lists.openstack.org<br>http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-docs<br><br></blockquote><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Openstack-docs mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Openstack-docs@lists.openstack.org">Openstack-docs@lists.openstack.org</a><br>http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-docs<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>