<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Steve Gordon <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sgordon@redhat.com" target="_blank">sgordon@redhat.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">----- Original Message -----<br>
> From: "Lorin Hochstein" <<a href="mailto:lorin@nimbisservices.com">lorin@nimbisservices.com</a>><br>
> To: "Steve Gordon" <<a href="mailto:sgordon@redhat.com">sgordon@redhat.com</a>><br>
</div><div class="im">> Cc: "Tom Fifield" <<a href="mailto:tom@openstack.org">tom@openstack.org</a>>, <a href="mailto:openstack-docs@lists.openstack.org">openstack-docs@lists.openstack.org</a><br>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 9:04:26 AM<br>
> Subject: Re: [Openstack-docs] Linking to external install guides<br>
><br>
</div><div class="im">> This definitely falls under the scope of the documentation effort. Alas, we<br>
> still don't even have the folsom->grizzly process fully documented yet <<br>
> <a href="https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1087483" target="_blank">https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1087483</a>>.<br>
<br>
</div>Yeah, my non-documentation concern is that improvement in this area requires some improved focus on identifying upgrade issues *before* release from the programs actually delivering the code. This is my interpretation just by following along the Folsom->Grizzly bug and attempting such an upgrade myself.<br>
<div class="im"><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>What has happened in the past is Razique would upgrade in production, keeping good notes, then bring them in to the documentation. </div><div style><br></div>
<div style>Razique documented cactus to diablo and diablo to essex: <a href="https://review.openstack.org/#/c/18053/3">https://review.openstack.org/#/c/18053/3</a> in December 2012. </div><div style><br></div><div style>
Alvaro Garcia did essex to folsom in <a href="https://review.openstack.org/#/c/21657/">https://review.openstack.org/#/c/21657/</a> in Feb 2013. </div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Razique's still assigned to folsom to grizzly.</div><div style><a href="https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1087483">https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1087483</a><br>
</div><div style><br></div><div style>He may have decent notes and just hasn't put them in a patch yet so check with him.</div><div style><br></div><div style> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="im">
> I added a new bug for documenting grizzly->havana <<br>
> <a href="https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1199773" target="_blank">https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1199773</a>>.<br>
<br>
</div>Thanks, I have started adding some more specific thoughts about the process there. A more general question is where in the documentation suite would we expect that content to live?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Usually it goes in the Install Guide, just the timing is after the release. </div><div style><br></div><div style>Anne</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
Steve<br>
<div class=""><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Steve Gordon <<a href="mailto:sgordon@redhat.com">sgordon@redhat.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> > ----- Original Message -----<br>
> > > From: "Tom Fifield" <<a href="mailto:tom@openstack.org">tom@openstack.org</a>><br>
> > > To: <a href="mailto:openstack-docs@lists.openstack.org">openstack-docs@lists.openstack.org</a><br>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 8:34:25 PM<br>
> > > Subject: Re: [Openstack-docs] Linking to external install guides<br>
> > ><br>
> > > On 10/07/13 00:48, Steve Gordon wrote:<br>
> > > > ----- Original Message -----<br>
> > > >> From: "Lorin Hochstein" <<a href="mailto:lorin@nimbisservices.com">lorin@nimbisservices.com</a>><br>
> > > >> To: "Steve Gordon" <<a href="mailto:sgordon@redhat.com">sgordon@redhat.com</a>><br>
> > > >> Cc: "Anne Gentle" <<a href="mailto:annegentle@justwriteclick.com">annegentle@justwriteclick.com</a>>,<br>
> > > >> <a href="mailto:openstack-docs@lists.openstack.org">openstack-docs@lists.openstack.org</a><br>
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 10:38:26 AM<br>
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Openstack-docs] Linking to external install guides<br>
> > > >><br>
> > > >> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Steve Gordon <<a href="mailto:sgordon@redhat.com">sgordon@redhat.com</a>><br>
> > wrote:<br>
> > > >><br>
> > > >>> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> > > >>>> From: "Anne Gentle" <<a href="mailto:annegentle@justwriteclick.com">annegentle@justwriteclick.com</a>><br>
> > > >>>> To: "Lorin Hochstein" <<a href="mailto:lorin@nimbisservices.com">lorin@nimbisservices.com</a>><br>
> > > >>>> Cc: <a href="mailto:openstack-docs@lists.openstack.org">openstack-docs@lists.openstack.org</a><br>
> > > >>>> Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 11:03:05 AM<br>
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Openstack-docs] Linking to external install guides<br>
> > > >>>><br>
> > > >>>> So, for the last few releases, I would update<br>
> > > >>>> <a href="http://www.openstack.org/software/start/" target="_blank">http://www.openstack.org/software/start/</a> with links to the<br>
> > downstream<br>
> > > >>>> deployment documentation. It was natural at the time.<br>
> > > >>>><br>
> > > >>>> What has changed as of last week is that documentation is now an<br>
> > > >>>> official<br>
> > > >>>> "Program" and we'll need to propose the goals for the documentation<br>
> > and<br>
> > > >>>> make a scope for release docs. To me, this change means we should be<br>
> > > >>>> more<br>
> > > >>>> tight and targeted with our install docs as they'll be part of the<br>
> > > >>>> integrated release.<br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>> Downstream deployment materials tend to cover arguably more<br>
> > streamlined<br>
> > > >>> approaches to deployment, such as Foreman, PackStack, Ansible, JuJu,<br>
> > etc.<br>
> > > >>> The flip side however is these deployment methods are not considered<br>
> > part<br>
> > > >>> of OpenStack itself and may not in fact be ready to deploy a new<br>
> > release<br>
> > > >>> on<br>
> > > >>> day dot. These approaches also don't necessarily have 1:1 equivalents<br>
> > > >>> across distributions.<br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>> For these reasons my feeling is the documentation "program" should be<br>
> > > >>> concentrated on delivering accurate manual installation steps at<br>
> > release<br>
> > > >>> time in a consolidated installation guide as suggested in the<br>
> > restructure<br>
> > > >>> blueprint [1]. I don't think however this precludes also linking the<br>
> > > >>> distribution specific materials somewhere as they become available,<br>
> > it<br>
> > > >>> just<br>
> > > >>> wouldn't be a blocker to the integrated release?<br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>> -Steve<br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>> [1]<br>
> > <a href="https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Blueprint-restructure-documentation" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Blueprint-restructure-documentation</a><br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >><br>
> > > >><br>
> > > >> At the last design summit, we talked about the doc team no longer<br>
> > > >> maintaining any install documentation at all going forward, leaving<br>
> > that<br>
> > > >> entirely to downstream projects. I really do think that's the way we<br>
> > > >> should<br>
> > > >> go. I'm hesitant to maintain docs on a fully manual install (i.e.,<br>
> > from<br>
> > > >> source tarballs), since we really don't want people to do that.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Yes, I realize now I should have clarified that by "manual" I still<br>
> > meant<br>
> > > > using packages - just without aids like those listed in my previous<br>
> > mail.<br>
> > > > I think trying to create and maintain documentation of from source<br>
> > > > installation that would potentially be even harder than this, despite<br>
> > the<br>
> > > > (potential) issues with packaged builds lagging behind the source<br>
> > release.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > >> It means that documentation on how to do an install won't exist until<br>
> > the<br>
> > > >> downstream projects write these up, but since we recommend installing<br>
> > from<br>
> > > >> downstream packages, I think that's unavoidable. Since we're seeing a<br>
> > lot<br>
> > > >> more support for OpenStack downstream these days, I think those<br>
> > projects<br>
> > > >> have more of an incentive to get their packages and docs ready ASAP<br>
> > after<br>
> > > >> a<br>
> > > >> release.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > My understanding is that at least RPM/DEB packages are likely to be<br>
> > > > available *very* shortly after the actual release for Havana.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I'll take a bullish line, which may not necessarily be achievable:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > """<br>
> > > On the day that the press release for Havana is sent out, we need -by<br>
> > > hook or by crook!- to have installation instructions for RHEL and<br>
> > > Ubuntu, and ideally SUSE and Debian too.<br>
> > > """<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I'm thinking: "if you can't install the software, then it's not really a<br>
> > > release, is it?". Release day is our time to shine :)<br>
> ><br>
> > Well, another huge gap that I think exists here is if you can't upgrade<br>
> > from the previous release it's not really a release. Currently I think this<br>
> > is a huge problem regardless of installation method because the only<br>
> > documentation available for upgrades appears to be some per-project notes<br>
> > in the release notes Wiki page. A bit tangential perhaps and not sure this<br>
> > is really just a documentation problem but thought I would bring it up.<br>
> ><br>
> > > So, feasibility/sanity check:<br>
> > > * This is unlikely to be provided in time by our friends at RH or<br>
> > > Canonical, leaving:<br>
> > > Option 1: Delay the press release<br>
> > > Option 2: DIY<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Personally, I think Option 1 would be terrible for the community's<br>
> > > "feelings", and tying OpenStack to particular product offerings is not<br>
> > > something we should probably be doing :)<br>
> ><br>
> > I've sent a query regarding build schedules for RDO on rdo-list [1]. No<br>
> > doubt there is package tweaking to be done but nightlies are already being<br>
> > built from trunk:<br>
> ><br>
> > <a href="http://repos.fedorapeople.org/repos/openstack/openstack-trunk/" target="_blank">http://repos.fedorapeople.org/repos/openstack/openstack-trunk/</a><br>
> ><br>
> > Thanks,<br>
> ><br>
> > Steve<br>
> ><br>
> > [1] <a href="https://www.redhat.com/archives/rdo-list/2013-July/msg00057.html" target="_blank">https://www.redhat.com/archives/rdo-list/2013-July/msg00057.html</a><br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Openstack-docs mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Openstack-docs@lists.openstack.org">Openstack-docs@lists.openstack.org</a><br>
> > <a href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-docs" target="_blank">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-docs</a><br>
> ><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Lorin Hochstein<br>
> Lead Architect - Cloud Services<br>
> Nimbis Services, Inc.<br>
> <a href="http://www.nimbisservices.com" target="_blank">www.nimbisservices.com</a><br>
><br>
<br>
</div></div><span class=""><font color="#888888">--<br>
Steve Gordon, RHCE<br>
Documentation Lead, Red Hat OpenStack<br>
Engineering Content Services<br>
Red Hat Canada (Toronto, Ontario)<br>
</font></span><div class=""><div class="h5"><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Anne Gentle<br><a href="mailto:annegentle@justwriteclick.com" target="_blank">annegentle@justwriteclick.com</a>
</div></div>