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Hello,
<div class="">I agree with previous statement from Michal.<br class="">
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>The upgrade path in for example RDO has been very smooth previously with upgrading to new OpenStack release</div>
<div>then switching out the distro version afterwards because they support both during a transition.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Sure they will do that now as well, but if any project decides to break py36 there will be more work for the RDO team</div>
<div>and more arguments to not revert changes because py38 would be the “real” supported runtime in OpenStack testing.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>The transition period is required to not break the upgrade path.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Best regards</div>
<div>Tobias</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 29 Nov 2021, at 11:14, Michał Nasiadka <<a href="mailto:mnasiadka@gmail.com" class="">mnasiadka@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
Hello,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I’m strongly against dropping py36 support now, unless we’re going to find a solution that works on CentOS Stream 8.</div>
<div class="">RHEL 9 is not out, and probably will not be in months - how do we expect users to use Yoga on production deployments (where they use CentOS Linux/equivalents today)?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Dropping the runtime testing and supporting devstack - and negotiating on a per project basis to support py36 or not - is not a solution.</div>
<div class="">Either Yoga supports py36 as a transition point/release to py38 - or not.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In Kolla - we also did not anticipate (and don’t think it’s a good idea) to support CentOS Stream 9 in Yoga release.</div>
<div class="">With the current decision - we are either forced with supporting CentOS Stream 9 (with no alternatives like Rocky Linux/Alma Linux in place - because RHEL 9 is not out) - or dropping CentOS support completely.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If we pursue CS9 - we also need to support migration from CS8 to CS9 and that’s also a considerable amount of work - which is unplanned.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best regards,</div>
<div class="">Michal<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 29 Nov 2021, at 10:17, Lee Yarwood <<a href="mailto:lyarwood@redhat.com" class="">lyarwood@redhat.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">On
26-11-21 11:24:59, Ghanshyam Mann wrote:</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
---- On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 10:18:16 -0600 Ghanshyam Mann <<a href="mailto:gmann@ghanshyammann.com" class="">gmann@ghanshyammann.com</a>> wrote ----<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">---- On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 10:05:15 -0600 Lee Yarwood <<a href="mailto:lyarwood@redhat.com" class="">lyarwood@redhat.com</a>> wrote ----<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On 26-11-21 09:37:44, Ghanshyam Mann wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">---- On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 06:29:42 -0600 Lee Yarwood <<a href="mailto:lyarwood@redhat.com" class="">lyarwood@redhat.com</a>> wrote ----<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On 26-11-21 10:54:26, Alfredo Moralejo Alonso wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:23 PM Ghanshyam Mann <<a href="mailto:gmann@ghanshyammann.com" class="">gmann@ghanshyammann.com</a>><br class="">
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">---- On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:58:28 -0600 Marcin Juszkiewicz <<br class="">
<a href="mailto:marcin.juszkiewicz@linaro.org" class="">marcin.juszkiewicz@linaro.org</a>> wrote ----<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">W dniu 25.11.2021 o 19:13, Stephen Finucane pisze:<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">gmann has been helpfully proposing patches to change the<br class="">
versions of Python we're testing against in Yoga. I've<br class="">
suggested that we might want to bump 'python_requires' in<br class="">
'setup.cfg' to indicate that we no longer support any version<br class="">
of Python before 3.8<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
CentOS Stream 8 has Python 3.6 by default and RDO team is doing<br class="">
CS8 -> CS9 migration during Yoga cycle. Can we postpone it to Z<br class="">
when there will be no distribution with Py 3.6 to care about?<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
Stupid question that I should know the answer to but does RDO really<br class="">
support RPM based installations anymore? IOW couldn't we just workaround<br class="">
this by providing CS8 py38 based containers during the upgrade?<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">As Marcin posted, the plan in RDO is to support both CentOS Stream 8 and<br class="">
CentOS Stream 9 in Yoga. This is how we have managed previous major CentOS<br class="">
version upgrades in the past providing support for both releases in an<br class="">
OpenStack version to ease the upgrade so I'd like to keep yoga working on<br class="">
py3.6 included in CS8 and CS9.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
If this was the plan why wasn't it made clear to the TC before they<br class="">
dropped CS8 from the Yoga runtimes? Would it even be possible for the TC<br class="">
to add CS8 and py36 back in to the Yoga runtimes?<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Postponing to Z, you mean dropping the py3.6 tests or bumping it in<br class="">
in 'setup.cfg' so that no one can install on py3.6 ?<br class="">
<br class="">
First one we already did and as per Yoga testing runtime we are<br class="">
targeting centos9-stream[1] in Yoga itself.<br class="">
<br class="">
For making 'python_requires' >=py3.8 in 'setup.cfg', I have no<br class="">
string opinion on this but I prefer to have flexible here that 'yes<br class="">
OpenStack is installable in py3.6 but we do not test it anymore from<br class="">
Yoga onwards so no guarantee'. Our testing runtime main goal is<br class="">
that we document the version we are testing *at least* which means<br class="">
it can work on lower or higher versions too but we just do not test<br class="">
them.<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
May it be possible to keep py3.6 jobs to make sure patches are not<br class="">
introducing py3.8-only features that would break deployment in CS8?<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
We should keep CS8 and py36 as supported runtimes if we are keeping the<br class="">
jobs, otherwise this just sets super confusing.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
Yeah, I think it create confusion as I can see in this ML thread so<br class="">
agree on keeping 'python_requires' also in sycn with what we test.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
Cool thanks!<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Now question on going back to centos stream 8 support in Yoga, is it<br class="">
not centos stream 9 is stable released or is it experimental only? If<br class="">
stable then we can keep the latest available version which can be<br class="">
centos stream 9.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
I honestly don't know and can't find any docs to point to.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Our project interface testing doc clearly stats 'latest LTS' to<br class="">
consider for testing[1] whenever we are ready. I am not very strongly<br class="">
against of reverting back to centos stream 8 but we should not add two<br class="">
version of same distro in testing which can be a lot of we consider<br class="">
below three distro<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
How do we expect operators to upgrade between Xena where CentOS 8 stream<br class="">
is a supported runtime and Yoga where CentOS 9 stream is currently the<br class="">
equivalent supported runtime without supporting both for a single<br class="">
release?<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
This is really good question on upgrade testing we do at upstream and I remember<br class="">
it cameup and discussed a lot during py2.7 drop also that how we are testing the<br class="">
upgrade from py2.7 to py3. Can we do in grenade? But that we answered as we did<br class="">
not tested directly but stein and train tested both version so should not be any issue<br class="">
if you upgrade from there (one of FAQ in my blog[1]).<br class="">
<br class="">
But on distro upgrade testing, as you know we do not test those in upstream neither<br class="">
in grenade where upgrade are done on old node distro only not from old distro version to<br class="">
new distro version with new code. It is not like we do not want to test but if anyone<br class="">
from any distro would like to setup grenade for that and maintain then we are more happy.<br class="">
In summary, yes we cannot guarantee distro upgrade testing from OpenStack upstream testing<br class="">
due to resource bandwidth issue but we will welcome any help here.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
We discussed with amoralej about moving the testing runtime to CentOS<br class="">
stream 8 and py36 or not in TC IRC channel[1].<br class="">
<br class="">
As we at upstream do not test distro two versions in same release,<br class="">
amoralej agreed to keep CentOS stream 9 if one to choose which is our<br class="">
current testing runtime is. So no change in the direction of current<br class="">
testing runtime and dropping the py3.6 but there is possibility of<br class="">
some trade off here. If any py3.6 breaking changes are happening then<br class="">
it is up to projects goodness, bandwidth, or flexibility about<br class="">
accepting the fix or not or even add a py36 unit test job. As our<br class="">
testing runtime is the minimum things to test and it does not put any<br class="">
max limit of testing, any project can extend their testing as per<br class="">
their bandwidth. <br class="">
<br class="">
In summary:<br class="">
<br class="">
(This is what we agreed today in TC channel but as most of the folks<br class="">
are on leave today, I will keep it open until next week so see if any<br class="">
objections from the community and will conclude it accordingly)<br class="">
<br class="">
* No change in Yoga testing runtime and we move to cs9 and drop py36.<br class="">
* We will not put hard stop on cs8 support and we can:<br class="">
** Devstack keep supporting cs8 in Yoga<br class="">
** It can be negotiated with project to add py36 job or fix if any<br class="">
py36 breaking changes are observed by RDO (or any distro interested in<br class="">
py36) but it depends on the project decision and bandwidth. <br class="">
<br class="">
As next, how we can improve the upgrade testing from distro versions<br class="">
is something we will explore next and see what all we can test to make<br class="">
upgrade easier.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I'm
against this, as I said in my setup.cfg >= py38 review for</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">openstack/nova
[1] we either list and support runtimes or don't. If RDO</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">and
others need CentOS 8 Stream support for a release then lets include</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">it
and py36 still for Yoga and make things explicit.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">As
I've said elsewhere I think the TC really need to adjust their</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">thinking
on this topic and allow for one OpenStack release where both</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">the
old and new LTS distro release are supported. Ensuring we allow</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">people
to actually upgrade in place and later handle the distro upgrade</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">itself.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Cheers,</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Lee</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">[1]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/nova/+/819415" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/nova/+/819415</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Lee
Yarwood A5D1 9385 88CB 7E5F BE64 6618 BCA6 6E33 F672 2D76</span></div>
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