Open Stack

On 2023-02-08 13:09:45 +0200 (+0200), Adrian Andreias wrote:
> IMHO, some issues with using a mailing list are:
> 
> - it's harder to browse and search the archive and you don't have
>   threads organized by (sub)categories
> - requires some extra steps jump in and to reply to a specific
>   thread if you're not already subscribed to the ML
> - mail filter per subject [prefix] does not fully work as not all
>   messages use a prefix
> - other idiosyncrasies like reading a ML email message and if you
>   want to share it, you need to go to the archive URL, find the
>   message and copy the link
[...]

Perhaps you missed my other reply, but those are merely properties
of the current mailing list software we're using. They're not
inherent properties of all mailing list platforms. This is why we're
in the process of upgrading to software which does not have many of
the limitations you've listed above. It's not going to be the ideal
web forum interface, but it seems to strike a good balance of
features while not compromising on functionality for people who
prefer E-mail based discussion. For an example, here's one of the
lists we've moved to the new platform already:

https://lists.opendev.org/archives/list/rust-vmm@lists.opendev.org/

If you have an account you can reply right in your web browser, no
need to subscribe and send E-mail messages. Posts subscribers
receive include an "archived at" URL so they can just share that
directly. You're right that categorization and filtering based on
subject keywords is not a panacea, it's more of a convention we've
established to help people more easily skim messages so they can
identify which ones may be of interest or which ones they can safely
ignore, and that people new to the community are not all that aware
of what keywords we've standardized on nor how to apply them (we do
link to that information from the list description, but I'm sure it
could be improved on). There's also the option to extend the archive
interface for better categorization of messages.

> A modern, open source, forum, like Discourse [1], can be used as a
> ML as well [2], and you can even subscribe to categories (instead
> of relying on ML subject prefix). So, Discourse is probably able
> to accommodate those die hard mailing list lovers as well. :) I
> think migration can be done without disturbing or requiring any
> action from the ML subscribers.
[...]

I've personally been struggling to engage in the Python packaging
community ever since the distutils-sig ML was forklifted to
Discourse a couple of years ago. The only people who will tell you
it's an effective mailing list platform are the people who
exclusively use its WebUI. It destroys quoting, destroys threading,
eats signed messages, lets participants go back and edit their posts
so that what you replied to is no longer what the post says, lets
participants delete posts or even entire discussions... it may be a
good platform for social interaction but it's quite dreadful for a
long-term historical record of discussions.

But more to the point, I don't think it's possible to force the
community to move to a different platform even if we wanted to. You
don't really move a community that way, you reform the community out
of the people who are ambivalent to the discussion platform plus the
people who refused to use the old platform but like the new one,
minus the people who liked the old platform and not the new one. For
example, we have a lot of discussion happening in IRC as well.
Closing down our IRC channels in favor of native Matrix channels
wouldn't mean that those discussions necessarily move to Matrix.
They'll move, but they may simply move to other unofficial IRC
channels, or to Slack or Discord or...

I don't object to someone setting up a web forum dedicated to
answering OpenStack user questions, by all means give it a go. I
don't personally have time to manage it, but that doesn't mean you
shouldn't. I'm not going to stop trying to improve our mailing lists
though, and I definitely don't think it's a good idea for us to tell
the people who want to use a mailing list that they should stop
using it in favor of some different means of discussion. There's no
lack of places for people to discuss things, and closing down one
platform doesn't ensure that discussion moves where you intend.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley
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