<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Sean Dague <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sean@dague.net" target="_blank">sean@dague.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">One of the big things to consider is which of these items directly<br>
support one of the key PWG issues: "painless upgrades"<br>
<br>
The following items: movinging paste.ini out of config, new style<br>
olso.policy (in code), and rootwrap -> privsep all eliminate files in<br>
/etc that dramatically impact code execution, and need careful merging<br>
during upgrades.<br>
<br>
These are kind of the trifecta of content that really never should have<br>
been in /etc, except it was easy to hack out in an initial version.<br>
<br>
So, it may not be evident to users that this is what's getting in the<br>
way of features rolling out to them, or them being 2 to 3 releases<br>
behind master, it's a huge part of it. As such, I think any/all of them<br>
should be considered as top level item for the next round of priorities.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yep -- this is the heart of the comms difficulty with these goals. I struggled myself to understand why there were perceived "tech debt" items high on the list. I had to have the cascading need explained to me that got the end user outcome from the goal. So, adding that additional context to the goal proposals helps. </div><div><br></div><div>Anne</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I'd argue that until upgrades become really easy, everything else is<br>
pretty secondary, because if people don't upgrade they'll never get any<br>
of the other enhancements you are making.<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
On 12/15/2016 04:11 AM, Jean-Philippe Evrard wrote:<br>
> Hello,<br>
><br>
> Maybe this will sound dumb …<br>
><br>
> I received this email on openstack-dev mailing list. I don’t know if it was sent to any other place, because it’s basically agreeing on development to be done, which makes sense to me.<br>
> So openstack-dev people (called further “devs”) will push their company agenda on these goals based on what they know in their company. I see the work done together there, and I find it great, but…<br>
><br>
> Wouldn’t that be better if we open this discussion to the general population (openstack users, operators, and devs) instead of just devs?<br>
> I submit this question because what I see on <a href="https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/community-goals" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://etherpad.openstack.<wbr>org/p/community-goals</a> is not only tech debt items that we have to fix, but also ideas of improvement on the long run for our users.<br>
> It makes sense to me to keep the tech debt items as a devs only topic (I don’t see why a user cares _at least at first_ about using oslo.privsep vs oslo.rootwrap), and it makes also sense to me to align “community goals” with the broad community.<br>
><br>
> What do you think? Should we remove the non tech-debt items in this dev-community-goals etherpad?<br>
> Should we have another set of community goals that could serve as a basis for the OpenStack user survey?<br>
> Or should we keep these goals merged together, with the risk of having tech-debt items having lower priority the user requirements? (For that, the TC would be a good judge for final cycle prioritization)<br>
><br>
> I think having community goals is great for openstack, and I’d be happy to understand how we’ll adapt <a href="http://governance.openstack.org/goals/index.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://governance.openstack.<wbr>org/goals/index.html</a> into real life work usable for everyone.<br>
><br>
> Thanks for your clarifications.<br>
><br>
> Best regards,<br>
> Jean-Philippe Evrard<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 12/12/2016, 12:19, "Emilien Macchi" <<a href="mailto:emilien@redhat.com">emilien@redhat.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 7:39 PM, Emilien Macchi <<a href="mailto:emilien@redhat.com">emilien@redhat.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > A few months ago, our community started to find and work on<br>
> > OpenStack-wide goals to "achieve visible common changes, push for<br>
> > basic levels of consistency and user experience, and efficiently<br>
> > improve certain areas where technical debt payments have become too<br>
> > high – across all OpenStack projects".<br>
> ><br>
> > <a href="http://governance.openstack.org/goals/index.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://governance.openstack.<wbr>org/goals/index.html</a><br>
> ><br>
> > We started to define a first Goal in Ocata (Remove Copies of Incubated<br>
> > Oslo Code) and we would like to move forward in Pike.<br>
> > I see 3 actions we could take now:<br>
> ><br>
> > 1) Collect feedback of our first iteration of Community Goals in<br>
> > OpenStack during Ocata. What went well? What was more challenging?<br>
> ><br>
> > Some examples:<br>
> > - should we move the goal documents into a separate repo to allow a<br>
> > shorter review time, where we could just have 2 TC members approve<br>
> > them instead of waiting a week?<br>
> > - we expected all teams to respond to all goals, even if they have no<br>
> > work to do. Should we continue that way?<br>
> > - should we improve the guidance to achieve Goals?<br>
> ><br>
> > I created an etherpad if folks want to give feedback:<br>
> > <a href="https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/community-goals-ocata-feedback" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://etherpad.openstack.<wbr>org/p/community-goals-ocata-<wbr>feedback</a><br>
> ><br>
> > 2) Goals backlog - <a href="https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/community-goals" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://etherpad.openstack.<wbr>org/p/community-goals</a><br>
> > - new Goals are highly welcome.<br>
> > - each Goal would be achievable in one cycle, if not I think we need<br>
> > to break it down into separated Goals (with connections).<br>
> > - some Goals already have a team (ex: Python 3) but some haven't.<br>
> > Maybe could we dress a list of people able to step-up and volunteer to<br>
> > help on these ones.<br>
> > - some Goals might require some documentation for how to achieve it.<br>
> ><br>
> > I think for now 2) can be discussed on the etherpad, though feel free<br>
> > to propose another channel.<br>
> ><br>
> > 3) Choose Goals for Pike.<br>
> > Some of us already did, but we might want to start looking at what<br>
> > Goals we would like to achieve during Pike cycle.<br>
> > I was thinking at giving a score to the Goals, that could be<br>
> > calculated by its priority (I know it's vague but we know what is<br>
> > really urgent for us versus what can wait 6 months); but also the<br>
> > number of people who are interested to contribute on a Goal (if this<br>
> > Goal doesn't have a team yet).<br>
> > For now, openstack/governance is the repository for Goals, please<br>
> > propose them here.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Please give feedback, we're doing iterations here, and hopefully we'll<br>
> > improve our Community Goals over the next cycles.<br>
> > Thanks for your time,<br>
><br>
> Two weeks happened, here's a digest version of the etherpad:<br>
><br>
> - Most of projects achieved the goal for Ocata, and we saw strong<br>
> interest to do it on time<br>
> - Some confusion between the ACK'ing of a goal, and actually doing the work.<br>
> - Some projects were slow on the uptake (of starting the work) and<br>
> even reviewing the patches.<br>
> - For now, keep using openstack/governance repo for documenting Goals.<br>
> - Improve guidance on what projects are expected to do when updating<br>
> the status of the Goal.<br>
> - For each Goal, document who the "guides" are and how to find them<br>
> when help is needed.<br>
> - It seems like achieving multiple Goals in a single cycle wouldn't be<br>
> possible for all teams, we could prioritize them to let teams achieve<br>
> more than one Goal within a cycle.<br>
><br>
> What's next?<br>
> <a href="https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/community-goals" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://etherpad.openstack.<wbr>org/p/community-goals</a><br>
> Now that we have a good set of Goals that are proposed in this<br>
> etherpad, we might want to rank them by priority (1 is the most<br>
> important). Feel free to do it in the etherpad, by putting a rank in<br>
> "Priority rank".<br>
><br>
> Also, I've noticed some Goals might be too big to be achievable within<br>
> a single cycle and might need to be split (Rolling upgrades for<br>
> example). If you're author of one these goals, please do so.<br>
> I hope we can start defining Pike Goals by next week, so we can start<br>
> documenting what we would expect and the guidance to achieve it/them.<br>
><br>
> Any feedback is welcome,<br>
> --<br>
> Emilien Macchi<br>
><br>
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</div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">--<br>
Sean Dague<br>
<a href="http://dague.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://dague.net</a><br>
</font></span><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Anne Gentle</div><div>--</div><div>Read my blog: <a href="https://justwriteclick.com" target="_blank">justwrite.click</a></div><div>Subscribe to Docs|Code: <a href="http://docslikecode.com" target="_blank">docslikecode.com</a> </div></div></div></div></div></div>
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