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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Flavio,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Forgive the top post and lack of responding inline – I am dealing with lookout 2016 which apparently has a bug here [0].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Your question:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">I can contribute to kolla-kubernetes all you want but that won't give me what I</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">asked for in my original email and I'm pretty sure there are opinions about the</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">"recommended" way for running OpenStack on kubernetes. Questions like: Should I</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">run rabbit in a container? Should I put my database in there too? Now with</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">PetSets it might be possible. Can we be smarter on how we place the services in</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">the cluster? Or should we go with the traditional controller/compute/storage</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">architecture.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">You may argue that I should just read the yaml files from kolla-kubernetes and</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">start from there. May be true but that's why I asked if there was something</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">written already.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Your question ^<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">My answer:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">I think what you are really after is why kolla-kubernetes has made the choices we have made. I would not argue that reading the code would answer that question because it does not. Instead
it answers how those choices were implemented.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">You are mistaken in thinking that contributing to kolla-kubernetes won’t give you what you really want. Participation in the Kolla community will answer for you *<b>why</b>* choices were
made as they were. Many choices are left unanswered as of yet and Red Hat can make a big impact in the future of the decision making about *<b>why</b>*. You have to participate to have your voice heard. If you are expecting the Kolla team to write a bunch
of documentation to explain *<b>why</b>* we have made the choices we have, we frankly don’t have time for that. Ryan and Michal may promise it with architecture diagrams and other forms of incomplete documentation, but that won’t provide you a holistic view
of *<b>why</b>* and is wasted efforts on their part (no offense Michal and Ryan – I think it’s a worthy goal. The timing for such a request is terrible and I don’t want to derail the team into endless discussions about the best way to do things).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">The best way to do things is sorted out via the gerrit review process using the standard OpenStack workflow through an open development process.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Flavio,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Consider this an invitation to come join us – we want Red Hat’s participation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">-steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">[0] http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/msoffice_outlook-mso_mac/outlook-for-mac-2016-replying-inline-with-html-no/298b830e-11ea-416c-b951-918d8f9562cb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">From: </span>
</b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">Flavio Percoco <flavio@redhat.com><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>"OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" <openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, September 23, 2016 at 3:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>"OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" <openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [openstack-dev] [kolla][fuel][tripleo] Reference architecture to deploy OpenStack on k8s<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">On 22/09/16 20:55 +0000, Steven Dake (stdake) wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">Flavio,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">Apologies for delay in response – my backlog is large.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">Forgive me if I parsed your message incorrectly.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">It's probably me failing to communicate my intent or just the intent not being</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">good enough or worth it at all.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">It came across to me as “How do I blaze a trail for OpenStack on Kubernetes?”. That was asked of me personally 3 years ago which led to the formation of the Kolla project inside Red Hat. Our
initial effort at that activity failed. Instead we decided kubernetes wasn’t ready for trailblazing in this space and used a far more mature project (Ansible) to solve the “OpenStack in Containers” problems and build from there.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">We have since expanded our scope to re-solve the “How do I blaze a trail for Openstack on Kubernetes?” question since Kubernetes is now ready for this sort of trailblazing. Fuel and several
other folks decided to create derived works of the Kolla community’s innovations in this area. I would contend that Fuel didn’t need to behave in such a way because the Kolla community is open, friendly, mature, diversely affiliated, has a reasonable philosophy
and good set of principles as well as a strong leadership pipeline.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">Rather than go blaze a trail when one already exists or create a derived work, why not increase your footprint in Kolla instead? Red Hat has invested in Kolla for some time now, and their
footprint hasn’t magically disappeared over night. We will give you what you want within reasonable boundaries (the boundaries all open-source projects set of their contributors). We also accept more work than the typical OpenStack project might, so it’s
not like you will have to bring donuts into the office for every patch you merge into Kolla.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">As to your more direct question of reference architecture, that is a totally loaded term that I’ll leave untouched.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">To answer your question of “Does Kolla have a set of best practices” the answer is yes in kolla-ansible and kolla itself and strongly forming set of best practices in kolla-kubernetes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">As I mentioned in my email, I don't really care about the implementation right</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">now. I'm not trying to change the current teams, goals, or anything. I would go</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">as far as saying that the acknowledgement of the existing teams in my original</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">email was merely a way to identify a set of teams that might be interested in</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">writing this reference architecture.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">Is it a loaded term? Maybe, is this point relevant for my original question? I'd</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">say no. It doesn't matter what we call this, not to me, not right now.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from and I appreciate your</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">input. Unfortunately, I think you addressed my email from the wrong angle as I'm</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">a step (or many steps) early from doing any kind of implementation and I tried</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">to be clear about this in my original email.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">I can contribute to kolla-kubernetes all you want but that won't give me what I</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">asked for in my original email and I'm pretty sure there are opinions about the</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">"recommended" way for running OpenStack on kubernetes. Questions like: Should I</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">run rabbit in a container? Should I put my database in there too? Now with</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">PetSets it might be possible. Can we be smarter on how we place the services in</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">the cluster? Or should we go with the traditional controller/compute/storage</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">architecture.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">You may argue that I should just read the yaml files from kolla-kubernetes and</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">start from there. May be true but that's why I asked if there was something</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">written already.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">Thanks for your email,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">Flavio</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">-steve</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">On 9/22/16, 4:04 AM, "Flavio Percoco" <<a href="mailto:flavio@redhat.com">flavio@redhat.com</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> Greetings,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> I've recently started looking into the container technologies around OpenStack.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> More specifically, I've been looking into the tools that allow for deploying</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> OpenStack on containers, which is what I'm the most interested in right now as</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> part of the TripleO efforts.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> I'm familiar with the Kolla project and the tools managed by this team. In fact,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> TripleO currently uses kolla images for the containerized nova-compute</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> deployment.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> I am, however, looking beyond a docker based deployment. I'd like to explore in</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> more depth a Kubernetes based deployment of OpenStack. I'm familiar with both</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> kolla-kubernetes and fuel-ccp, their structure and direction*. Both projects</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> have now advanced a bit in their implementations and made some decisions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> As someone that started looking into this topic just recently, I'd love to see</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> our communities collaborate more wherever possible. For example, it'd be great</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> to see us working on a reference architecture for deploying OpenStack on</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> kubernetes, letting the implementation details aside for a bit. I'd assume some</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> folks have done this already and I bet we can all learn more from it if we work</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> on this together.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> So, let me go ahead and ask some further questions here, I might be missing some</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> history and/or context:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> - Is there any public documentation that acts as a reference architecture for</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> deploying OpenStack on kubernetes?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> - Is this something the architecture working group could help with? Or would it</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> be better to hijack one of kolla meetings?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> The restult I'd love to see from this collaboration is a reference architecture</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> explaining how OpenStack should be run on Kubernetes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> Thanks in advance. I look forward to see us collaborate more on this area,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> Flavio</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> * thanks to all fuel and kolla contributors that helped me understand better the</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> work in each of these projects and the direction they are headed</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> .</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> --</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> @flaper87</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"> Flavio Percoco</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">__________________________________________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">Unsubscribe: <a href="mailto:OpenStack-dev-request@lists.openstack.org">
OpenStack-dev-request@lists.openstack.org</a>?subject:unsubscribe</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black"><a href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">-- </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">@flaper87</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black">Flavio Percoco</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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