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<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Armando<o:p></o:p></span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Pls see below
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00B050">[UE]</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Uri (“Oo-Ree”)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">C: 949-378-7568<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_____replyseparator"></a><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Armando M. [mailto:armamig@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 20, 2016 9:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) <openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [openstack-dev] [Neutron] support of NSH in networking-SFC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 20 May 2016 at 17:37, Elzur, Uri <<a href="mailto:uri.elzur@intel.com" target="_blank">uri.elzur@intel.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a name="m_1740207349210122694__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Armando, Cathy, All</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">First I apologize for the delay, returning from a week long international trip. (yes, I know, a lousy
excuse on many accounts…)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If I’m attempting to summarize all the responses, it seems like
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">A given abstraction in Neutron is allowed (e.g. in support of SFC), preferably not specific to a given technology e.g. NSH for SFC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">A stadium project is not held to the same tests (but we do not have a “formal” model here, today) and therefore can support even a specific technology e.g. NSH (definitely
better with abstractions to meet Neutron standards for future integration)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">A given abstraction is allowed so long as there is enough agreement that it is indeed technology agnostic. If the abstraction maps neatly to a given technology, the implementation may exist within the context of Neutron or elsewhere.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00B050">[UE] I think we have agreement SFC is a needed abstraction<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Having said that I'd like to clarify a point: you seem to refer to the stadium as a golden standard. The stadium is nothing else but a list of software repositories that the Neutron team develops and maintain. Given the maturity of a specific
repo, it may or may not implement an abstraction with integration code to non open technologies. This is left at discretion of the group of folks who are directly in control of the specific repo, though it has been the general direction to strongly encourage
and promote openness throughout the entire stack that falls under the responsibility of the Neutron team and thus the stadium.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00B050">[UE] carefully read (</span><a href="https://review.openstack.org/#/c/312199/12/specs/newton/neutron-stadium.rst,unified"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">https://review.openstack.org/#/c/312199/12/specs/newton/neutron-stadium.rst,unified</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00B050">)
and hope I understand Stadium. All NSH patches that we’d like to support are OPEN. I’m still looking for the place where a restriction prevents networking-SFC form moving forward on NSH before all other external projects to OpenStack has completed their work.
Pls see also reply to Tim Rozet</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">However,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">There still is a chicken and egg phenomenon… how can a technology become main stream with OPEN SOURCE support if we can’t get an OpenStack to support the required abstractions
<u>before</u> the technology was adopted elsewhere?? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D">o</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Especially as Stadium, can we let Neutron to lead the industry, given broad enough community interest?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">BTW, in this particular case, there originally has been a
<u>direct</u> ODL access as a NSH solution (i.e. NO OpenStack option), then we got Tacker (now an Neutron Stadium project, if I get it right) to support SFC and NSH, but we are still told that networking-sfc (another Neutron Stadium project ) can’t do the same….</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I cannot comment for the experience and the conversations you've had so far as I have no context. All I know is that if you want to experiment with OpenDaylight and its NSH provider and want to use that as a Neutron backend you can. However,
if that requires new abstractions, these new abstractions must be agreed by all interested parties, be technology agnostic, and allow for multiple implementation, an open one included. That's the nature of OpenStack.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00B050">[UE] thanks for this clarification! I think it means that now that we all agree SFC abstraction is needed and that NSH is an emerging standard and networking-sfc
team agrees to support NSH – there should be no reason to wait. As Tim Rozet mentioned an ODL driver with explicit SFC support is WIP, so sounds like NSH support in it should be a go!</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Also regarding the following comment made on another message in this thread, “As to OvS features, I guess the OvS ml is a better place, but wonder if the Neutron community
wants to hold itself hostage to the pace of other projects who are reluctant to adopt a feature”, what I mean is again, that chicken and egg situation as above. Personally, I think OpenStack Neutron should allow mechanisms that are of interest / value to the
networking community at large, to “ experiment with the abstraction” as you stated,
<u>independent of other organizations/projects</u>…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I personally I see no catch-22 if you operate under the premises I stated above. If Neutron allowed to experiment with *any* mechanism without taking into consideration the importance of abstractions and community consensus, we as a community
have failed, especially in relation to the aspect of interoperability.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00B050">[UE] but as stated above and on the ml, in this case where we have agreement on the specific SFC abstraction, are we in agreement that we can move without being
held back by other projects e.g. OvS???</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">SOOO, is the bottom line that we agree that supporting NSH explicitly in networking-sfc can be added
now?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I don't know what you mean by supporting NSH explicitly in networking-sfc. Can you be more specific? Do you intend via OpenDaylight? What would be the NSH provider?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00B050">[UE] sure. Building NSH specific api and structures inside networking-sfc project (requires upgrade to its v1 API)</span><span style="color:#00B050"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00B050">and
supporting of the ODL driver with NSH support. ODL can be the provider and can be tested w Neutron+ Networking-sfc</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thx</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Uri (“Oo-Ree”)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">C:
<a href="tel:949-378-7568" target="_blank">949-378-7568</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a name="m_1740207349210122694______replyseparato"></a><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Armando M. [mailto:<a href="mailto:armamig@gmail.com" target="_blank">armamig@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2016 5:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Cathy Zhang <<a href="mailto:Cathy.H.Zhang@huawei.com" target="_blank">Cathy.H.Zhang@huawei.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) <<a href="mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org" target="_blank">openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [openstack-dev] [Neutron] support of NSH in networking-SFC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On 13 May 2016 at 16:01, Cathy Zhang <<a href="mailto:Cathy.H.Zhang@huawei.com" target="_blank">Cathy.H.Zhang@huawei.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Uri,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Current networking-sfc API allows the user to specify the data path SFC encapsulation mechanism and
NSH could be one of the encapsulation options. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">But since OVS release has not supported the NSH yet, we have to wait until NSH is added into OVS and
then start to support the NSH encapsulation mechanism in the data path.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">One can support NSH whichever way they see fit. NSH in OVS is not something Neutron can do anything about. Neutron is about defining abstractions that can apply to a variety of
technologies and experiment with what open source component is available on the shelves. Anyone can take the abstraction and deliver whatever technology stack they want with it and we'd happily gather any feedback to iterate on the abstraction to address more
and more use case.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">AFAIK, it is the position of Neutron to have any OVS related new features developed inside the OVS
community. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Cathy</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> Elzur, Uri [mailto:<a href="mailto:uri.elzur@intel.com" target="_blank">uri.elzur@intel.com</a>]
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<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2016 3:02 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions); Armando M<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [openstack-dev] [Neutron] support of NSH in networking-SFC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a name="m_1740207349210122694_m_5375375125506740"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Armando</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">As an industry we are working on SFC for 3 years or so (more?). Still to date, we are told we can’t
get Neutron or even a Stadium project e.g. networking-SFC to support NSH (in IETF LC phase) because OvS has not supported NSH. Is this an official position of Neutron that OvS is the gold standard to support any new feature?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">We have seen OvS support other overlays that are not ahead of VXLAN-gpe in the IETF.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thx</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Uri (“Oo-Ree”)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">C:
<a href="tel:949-378-7568" target="_blank">949-378-7568</a></span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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