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<div>This issue involves what I refer to as "OS religion" operators have this WRT bay nodes, but users don't. I suppose this is a key reason why OpenStack does not have any concept of supported OS images today. Where I can see the value in offering various
choices in Magnum, maintaining a reference implementation of an OS image has shown that it requires non-trivial resources, and expanding that to several will certainly require more. The question really comes down to the importance of this particular choice
as a development team focus. Is it more important than a compelling network or storage integration with OpenStack services? I doubt it.</div>
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<div id="AppleMailSignature">We all agree there should be a way to use an alternate OS image with Magnum. That has been our intent from the start. We are not discussing removing that option. However, rather than having multiple OS images the Magnum team maintains,
maybe we could clearly articulate how to plug in to Magnum, and set up a third party CI, and allow various OS vendors to participate to make their options work with those requirements. If this approach works, then it may even reduce the need for a reference
implementation at all if multiple upstream options result.<br>
<br>
--
<div>Adrian</div>
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<div><br>
On Mar 1, 2016, at 12:28 AM, Guz Egor <<a href="mailto:guz_egor@yahoo.com">guz_egor@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187973" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187981" class="">Adrian,</span><span></span></div>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187972">I disagree, host OS is very important for operators because of integration with all internal tools/repos/etc. </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187972"><br>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187972">I think it make sense to limit OS support in Magnum main source. But not sure that Fedora Atomic is right choice,</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187972" dir="ltr">first of all there is no documentation about it and I don't think it's used/tested a lot by Docker/Kub/Mesos community.</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187972" dir="ltr">It make sense to go with Ubuntu (I believe it's still most adopted platform in all three COEs and OpenStack deployments) </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187972" dir="ltr">and CoreOS (is highly adopted/tested in Kub community and Mesosphere DCOS uses it as well).</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187972"> </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187972" dir="ltr">We can implement CoreOS support as driver and users can use it as reference implementation. </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187972"><br>
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<div class="signature" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187971">--- </div>
<div class="signature" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187965">Egor</div>
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<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Adrian Otto <<a href="mailto:adrian.otto@rackspace.com">adrian.otto@rackspace.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) <<a href="mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org">openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, February 29, 2016 10:36 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [openstack-dev] [magnum] Discussion of supporting single/multiple OS distro<br>
</font></div>
<div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187856"><br>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1456289814592_1187855">Consider this: Which OS runs on the bay nodes is not important to end users. What matters to users is the environments their containers execute in, which has only one thing in common with the bay node OS: the kernel.
The linux syscall interface is stable enough that the various linux distributions can all run concurrently in neighboring containers sharing same kernel. There is really no material reason why the bay OS choice must match what distro the container is based
on. Although I’m persuaded by Hongbin’s concern to mitigate risk of future changes WRT whatever OS distro is the prevailing one for bay nodes, there are a few items of concern about duality I’d like to zero in on:
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<div class="yiv4665565077">1) Participation from Magnum contributors to support the CoreOS specific template features has been weak in recent months. By comparison, participation relating to Fedora/Atomic have been much stronger.</div>
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<div class="yiv4665565077">2) Properly testing multiple bay node OS distros (would) significantly increase the run time and complexity of our functional tests.</div>
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<div class="yiv4665565077">3) Having support for multiple bay node OS choices requires more extensive documentation, and more comprehensive troubleshooting details.</div>
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<div class="yiv4665565077">If we proceed with just one supported disto for bay nodes, and offer extensibility points to allow alternates to be used in place of it, we should be able to address the risk concern of the chosen distro by selecting an alternate
when that change is needed, by using those extensibility points. These include the ability to specify your own bay image, and the ability to use your own associated Heat template. </div>
<div class="yiv4665565077"><br clear="none" class="yiv4665565077">
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<div class="yiv4665565077">I see value in risk mitigation, it may make sense to simplify in the short term and address that need when it becomes necessary. My point of view might be different if we had contributors willing and ready to address the variety of
drawbacks that accompany the strategy of supporting multiple bay node OS choices. In absence of such a community interest, my preference is to simplify to increase our velocity. This seems to me to be a relatively easy way to reduce complexity around heat
template versioning. What do you think?</div>
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<div class="yiv4665565077">Thanks,</div>
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<div class="yiv4665565077">Adrian</div>
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<div class="yiv4665565077yqt4694573069" id="yiv4665565077yqt28686">
<div class="yiv4665565077">On Feb 29, 2016, at 8:40 AM, Hongbin Lu <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv4665565077" ymailto="mailto:hongbin.lu@huawei.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:hongbin.lu@huawei.com">hongbin.lu@huawei.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div class="yiv4665565077WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;">
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<span class="yiv4665565077" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi team,</span></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<span class="yiv4665565077" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<span class="yiv4665565077" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);">This is a continued discussion from a review [1]. Corey O'Brien suggested to have Magnum support a single OS distro (Atomic). I disagreed. I think we should bring the discussion to here to get broader
set of inputs.<span class="yiv4665565077Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<span class="yiv4665565077" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077">Corey O'Brien</i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077">From the midcycle, we decided we weren't going to continue to support 2 different versions of the k8s template. Instead, we were going to maintain the Fedora Atomic version of k8s and remove the coreos templates from the tree. I don't
think we should continue to develop features for coreos k8s if that is true.</i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077">In addition, I don't think we should break the coreos template by adding the trust token as a heat parameter.</i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077"> </i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077">Hongbin Lu</i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077">I was on the midcycle and I don't remember any decision to remove CoreOS support. Why you want to remove CoreOS templates from the tree. Please note that this is a very big decision and please discuss it with the team thoughtfully and
make sure everyone agree.</i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077"> </i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077">Corey O'Brien</i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077">Removing the coreos templates was a part of the COE drivers decision. Since each COE driver will only support 1 distro+version+coe we discussed which ones to support in tree. The decision was that instead of trying to support every
distro and every version for every coe, the magnum tree would only have support for 1 version of 1 distro for each of the 3 COEs (swarm/docker/mesos). Since we already are going to support Atomic for swarm, removing coreos and keeping Atomic for kubernetes
was the favored choice.</i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077"> </i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077">Hongbin Lu</i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077">Strongly disagree. It is a huge risk to support a single distro. The selected distro could die in the future. Who knows. Why make Magnum take this huge risk? Again, the decision of supporting single distro is a very big decision. Please
bring it up to the team and have it discuss thoughtfully before making any decision. Also, Magnum doesn't have to support every distro and every version for every coe, but should support *more than one* popular distro for some COEs (especially for the popular
COEs).</i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077"> </i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077">Corey O'Brien</i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077">The discussion at the midcycle started from the idea of adding support for RHEL and CentOS. We all discussed and decided that we wouldn't try to support everything in tree. Magnum would provide support in-tree for 1 per COE and the
COE driver interface would allow others to add support for their preferred distro out of tree.</i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077"> </i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077">Hongbin Lu</i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<i class="yiv4665565077">I agreed the part that "we wouldn't try to support everything in tree". That doesn't imply the decision to support single distro. Again, support single distro is a huge risk. Why make Magnum take this huge risk?</i></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<span class="yiv4665565077" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<span class="yiv4665565077" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);">[1]<span class="yiv4665565077Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv4665565077" target="_blank" href="https://review.openstack.org/#/c/277284/" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;">https://review.openstack.org/#/c/277284/</a></span></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<span class="yiv4665565077" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<span class="yiv4665565077" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);">Best regards,</span></div>
<div class="yiv4665565077" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">
<span class="yiv4665565077" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hongbin</span></div>
</div>
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