<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On 24 January 2016 at 22:12, Kevin Benton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:blak111@gmail.com" target="_blank">blak111@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=""><p dir="ltr">>The reason for that was in the other half of the thread - it's not possible to magically discover these things from within Openstack's own code because the relevant settings span more than just one server</p>
</span><p dir="ltr">IMO it's better to have a default of 1500 rather than let VMs automatically default to 1500 because at least we will deduct the encap header length when necessary in the dhcp/ra advertised value so overlays work on standard 1500 MTU networks. </p>
<p dir="ltr">In other words, our current empty default is realistically a terrible default of 1500 that doesn't account for network segmentation overhead. </p></blockquote><div></div><div>It's pretty clear that, while the current setup is precisely the old behaviour (backward compatibility, y'know?), it's not very useful. Problem is, anyone using the 1550+hacks and other methods of today will find their system changes behaviour if we started setting that specific default.<br><br></div><div>Regardless, we need to take that documentation and update it. It was a nasty hack back in the day and not remotely a good idea now.<br></div><div><br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jan 24, 2016 23:00, "Ian Wells" <<a href="mailto:ijw.ubuntu@cack.org.uk" target="_blank">ijw.ubuntu@cack.org.uk</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On 24 January 2016 at 20:18, Kevin Benton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:blak111@gmail.com" target="_blank">blak111@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">I believe the issue is that the default is unspecified, which leads to nothing being advertised to VMs via dhcp/ra. So VMs end up using 1500, which leads to a catastrophe when running on an overlay on a 1500 underlay. </p></blockquote>That's not quite the point I was making here, but to answer that: looks to me like (for the LB or OVS drivers to appropriately set the network MTU for the virtual network, at which point it will be advertised because advertise_mtu defaults to True in the code) you *must* set one or more of path_mtu (for L3 overlays), segment_mtu (for L2 overlays) or physnet_mtu (for L2 overlays with differing MTUs on different physical networks). That's a statement of faith - I suspect if we try it we'll find a few niggling problems - but I can find the code, at least.<br><br>The reason for that was in the other half of the thread - it's not possible to magically discover these things from within Openstack's own code because the relevant settings span more than just one server. They have to line up with both your MTU settings for the interfaces in use, and the MTU settings for the other equipment within and neighbouring the cloud - switches, routers, nexthops. So they have to be provided by the operator - then everything you want should kick in.<br><br> If all of that is true, it really is just a documentation problem - we have the idea in place, we're just not telling people how to make use of it. We can also include a checklist or a check script with that documentation - you might not be able to deduce the MTU values, but you can certainly run some checks to see if the values you have been given are obviously wrong.<br><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">In the meantime, Matt K, you said you hadn't set path_mtu in your tests, but [1] says you have to ([1] is far from end-user consumable documentation, which again illustrates our problem).<br><br>Can you set both path_mtu and segment_mtu to whatever value your switch MTU is (1500 or 9000), confirm your outbound interface MTU is the same (1500 or 9000), and see if that changes things? At this point, you should find that your networks get appropriate 1500/9000 MTUs on VLAN based networks and 1450/8950 MTUs on VXLAN networks, that they're advertised to your VMs via DHCP and RA, and that your routers even know that different interfaces have different MTUs in a mixed environment, at least if everything is working as intended.<br></div><div class="gmail_quote">-- <br><div>Ian.<br><br>[1] <a href="https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/544ff57bcac00720f54a75eb34916218cb248213/releasenotes/notes/advertise_mtu_by_default-d8b0b056a74517b8.yaml#L5" target="_blank">https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/544ff57bcac00720f54a75eb34916218cb248213/releasenotes/notes/advertise_mtu_by_default-d8b0b056a74517b8.yaml#L5</a><br></div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>On Jan 24, 2016 20:48, "Ian Wells" <<a href="mailto:ijw.ubuntu@cack.org.uk" target="_blank">ijw.ubuntu@cack.org.uk</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On 23 January 2016 at 11:27, Adam Lawson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:alawson@aqorn.com" target="_blank">alawson@aqorn.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">For the sake of over-simplification, is there ever a reason to NOT enable jumbo frames in a cloud/SDN context where most of the traffic is between virtual elements that all support it? I understand that some switches do not support it and traffic form the web doesn't support it either but besides that, seems like a default "jumboframes = 1" concept would work just fine to me.</div></blockquote><div><br><div><div>Offhand:<br><br></div>1. you don't want the latency increase that comes with 9000 byte packets, even if it's tiny (bearing in mind that in a link shared between tenants it affects everyone when one packet holds the line for 6 times longer)<br></div><div>2. not every switch in the world is going to (a) be configurable or (b) pass 9000 byte packets<br></div><div>3.
not every VM has a configurable MTU that you can set on boot, or
supports jumbo frames, and someone somewhere will try and run one of
those VMs<br></div><div>4. when you're using provider networks, not
every device attached to the cloud has a 9000 MTU (and this one's
interesting, in fact, because it points to the other element the MTU
spec was addressing, that *not all networks, even in Neutron, will have
the same MTU*). <br>5. similarly, if you have an external network in
Openstack, and you're using VXLAN, the MTU of the external network is almost certainly 50
bytes bigger than that of the inside of the VXLAN overlays, so no one
number can ever be right for every network in Neutron.<br></div><div><br></div>Also,
I say 9000, but why is 9000 even the right number? We need a number... and 'jumbo' is not a
number. I know devices that will let you transmit 9200 byte packets.
Conversely, if the native L2 is 9000 bytes, then the MTU in a Neutron
virtual network is less than 9000 - so what MTU do you want to offer
your applications? If your apps don't care, why not tell them what MTU
they're getting (e.g. 1450) and be done with it? (Memory says that the old problem with that was that github had problems with PMTUD in that circumstance, but I don't know if that's still true, and even if it is it's not technically our problem.)<br><br></div><div>Per the spec, I would like to see us do the remaining fixes to make that work as intended - largely 'tell the VMs what they're getting' - and then, as others have said, lay out simple options for deployments, be they jumbo frame or otherwise.<br><br>If you're seeing MTU related problems at this point, can you file bugs on them and/or report back the bugs here, so that we can see what we're actually facing?<br></div>-- <br></div><div class="gmail_quote">Ian.<br></div></div></div>
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