<div dir="ltr">For the record, thanks for your replies guys. I am not suggesting any specific means to resolve or suggesting what we're doing is wrong; only that the current structure seems odd.<div><br></div><div><div>The TC charter, as I read it, states that the TC committee represents everything of a technical nature of OpenStack via this quote: "<span style="color:rgb(62,67,73);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14.3999996185303px;line-height:21.5999984741211px">generally has technical oversight over all of OpenStack</span>". That includes whatever the Operators contribute or engage with ("all of OpenStack"). Given OpenStack has a vibrant Operators community who contribute a great deal in terms of "rubber on the road" feedback, suggestions for improvement and real-world implementation reality checks, it seems appropriate that the committee tasked to oversee everything technical within OpenStack (which I think we all agree encompasses more than those who contribute code) should not be disallowing one community but allowing another to elect that committee.</div><div><br></div><div>This i know is totally my opinion, but if we require Operators to seek special approval, that doesn't seem to fit our ideal goals of Commonality. Whatever we need to do to quantify those who contribute to OpenStack versus those who don't is tricky I agree. I don't know the answer. But it would seem to me the current situation is ripe for a change.</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><font><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><b><i><br>Adam Lawson</i></b></div><div><font><font color="#666666" size="1"><div style="font-family:arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">AQORN, Inc.</div><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">427 North Tatnall Street</div><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">Ste. 58461</div><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">Wilmington, Delaware 19801-2230</div><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">Toll-free: (844) 4-AQORN-NOW ext. 101</div><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">International: +1 302-387-4660</div></font><font color="#666666" size="1"><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">Direct: +1 916-246-2072</div></font></font></div></font></div><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><img src="http://www.aqorn.com/images/logo.png" width="96" height="39"><br></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 3:26 AM, Flavio Percoco <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:flavio@redhat.com" target="_blank">flavio@redhat.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">On 30/04/15 12:07 +0300, Maish Saidel-Keesing wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
On 04/30/15 10:15, Thierry Carrez wrote:<br>
<br>
Doug Hellmann wrote:<br>
<br>
Anyway, I find it curious that the TC is elected by those within the<br>
developer community but TC candidates talk about representing the operator<br>
community who are not allowed to vote. Operators meaning Admins,<br>
Architects, etc. It sounds like this is something most TC candidates want<br>
which most would agree is a good thing. At least I think so. ; )<br>
<br>
I'm going to nitpick on terminology a bit. The TC is elected by<br>
*technical contributors*, not developers, as described in the charter:<br>
<a href="http://governance.openstack.org/reference/charter.html#voters-for-tc-seats-atc" target="_blank">http://governance.openstack.org/reference/charter.html#voters-for-tc-seats-atc</a><br>
<br>
+1<br>
<br>
I think there is a key misconception in this thread that the TC is<br>
supposed to represent (or talk about representing) more than just the<br>
technical contributors that produce OpenStack.<br>
<br>
When the OpenStack Foundation was set up, three bodies of governance<br>
were established:<br>
<br>
- the Board of Directors (representing the community as a whole)<br>
- the Technical Committee (representing technical contributors)<br>
- the User Committee (representing users and ops of OpenStack)<br>
<br>
The Technical Committee mandate is therefore not to represent the users<br>
and Ops of OpenStack in that setup, it's the role of the User committee.<br>
If we did include Ops, we would be clearly overstepping our mandate.<br>
<br>
Thierry, essentially I agree with you. I do think though that the disconnect<br>
between Dev & Ops is an unhealthy situation. Two separate bodies working in two<br>
different ways with two different agendas is actually very much against the<br>
current way that most development organizations are aspire towards.<br>
<br>
The TC charter [1] states.<br>
<br>
" The Technical Committee (“TC”) is tasked with providing the technical<br>
leadership for OpenStack as a whole (all official projects, as defined below).<br>
<br>
It enforces OpenStack ideals (Openness, Transparency, Commonality, Integration,<br>
Quality...), decides on issues affecting multiple projects, forms an ultimate<br>
appeals board for technical decisions, and generally has technical oversight<br>
over all of OpenStack."<br>
<br>
IMHO, the spirit of the original question that was raised was - how can "all of<br>
OpenStack" only be those who write the code, and not those that use and operate<br>
it on a day to day basis?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div></div>
Are these thoughts based on the current state of OpenStack? or are<br>
they influenced a bit by our past?<br>
<br>
The reason I ask is because I believe we've come a long way on<br>
integrating more with Ops and Users. New groups have been created, new<br>
meetups have been run, a dedicated day has been assigned at the<br>
summit, a dedicated mailing list - that most of us follow - has been<br>
created, etc, etc, etc.<br>
<br>
I've seen the number of threads to discuss Ops topics increase in<br>
openstack-dev and the influence of Ops - even just points of views<br>
inherited from the feedback we've got - on reviews has gotten better<br>
as well.<br>
<br>
While I don't consider we're there yet, I do think there have been<br>
several improvements in this area, which is why I'm curious to know<br>
the answer to my questions above.<br>
<br>
If it's a matter of having more Ops voting for the TC, we do have a<br>
process in place that we could likely improve. Other than that, I<br>
believe Thierry and Doug have explained perfectly the issues related<br>
to having these 2 groups merged from a *governance* perspective.<br>
<br>
Flavio<span class="im HOEnZb"><br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
Rather than asking that Ops should be able to elect the TC, you should<br>
probably start discussing how to improve on the User committee election<br>
process and visibility.<br>
<br>
It would be great to understand how exactly this was done, what their charter<br>
is and how much influence they have on technical decisions within the larger<br>
OpenStack as a whole [2]<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[1] <a href="http://governance.openstack.org/reference/charter.html" target="_blank">http://governance.openstack.org/reference/charter.html</a><br>
[2] <a href="https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation/UserCommittee" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation/UserCommittee</a><br>
--<br>
Best Regards,<br>
Maish Saidel-Keesing<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
__________________________________________________________________________<br>
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)<br>
Unsubscribe: <a href="http://OpenStack-dev-request@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe" target="_blank">OpenStack-dev-request@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev" target="_blank">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
-- <br>
@flaper87<br>
Flavio Percoco<br>
</font></span><br>__________________________________________________________________________<br>
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)<br>
Unsubscribe: <a href="http://OpenStack-dev-request@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe" target="_blank">OpenStack-dev-request@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev" target="_blank">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>