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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/23/2014 07:15 PM, John Griffith
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAPWkaSWSy2yocJYaX2ozK3M66R+kaFGuvf156f3sosOG2B3F-w@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr"><br>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 7:06 PM,
            Steven Dake <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:sdake@redhat.com" target="_blank">sdake@redhat.com</a>></span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span class="">
                  <div>On 09/23/2014 05:38 PM, Fox, Kevin M wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div
                      style="direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size:10pt">I'm
                      interested in how this relates/conflicts with the
                      TripleO goal of using OpenStack to deploy
                      OpenStack.<br>
                      <br>
                      It looks like (maybe just superficially) that
                      Kubernetes is simply a combination of (nova +
                      docker driver) = container schedualer and (heat) =
                      orchestration. They both schedule containers, will
                      need advanced scheduling like "ensure these two
                      containers are on different servers (nova
                      ServerGroups), autoscale resources, hook up things
                      together, have a json document that describes the
                      desired state, etc... If that's the case, it seems
                      odd to use an OpenStack competing product to
                      deploy a competitor of Kubernetes. Two software
                      stacks to learn how to debug rather then just one.<br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </span> Kevin,<br>
                <br>
                Thanks for the feedback.<br>
                <br>
                There are two orthogonal points you address re
                competitiveness.  One is the deployment program (which
                Kolla intends to be a part of).  The deployment program
                includes an implementation (tripleo).  TripleO is
                focused around using OpenStack to deploy OpenStack. 
                Kolla is focused around using Kubernetes to deploy
                OpenStack.  But they both fit into the same program, and
                at some point they may even be remerged into both using
                OpenStack to deploy OpenStack.  Time will tell.<br>
                <br>
                IMO Kubernetes is not competitive with OpenStack.  The
                way in which the Kolla project uses them is in fact
                complimentary.  In a perfect world OpenStack's container
                service (Magnum) + Heat could be used instead of
                Kubernetes.  The problem with that approach is the
                container service for OpenStack is not functional and
                not integrated into the release.<br>
                <br>
                It is indeed true that another software stack must be
                learned.  We hope to abstract most/all of the
                differences so the actual maintenance difference (ie
                what must be learned) presents a small learning
                footprint.<span class=""><br>
                  <br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div
                      style="direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size:10pt">
                      Maybe I'm just totally misunderstanding what
                      Kubernetes is trying to accomplish though. I'm not
                      trying to stur up trouble here. I just really want
                      to understand how these two technologies fit
                      together.<br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <br>
                </span> I don't see you stirring up trouble :) 
                Essentially this project proposes an alternative method
                for deploying OpenStack (ie not using OpenStack, but
                using Kubernetes).<br>
                <br>
                I did run the idea by Robert Collins (current TripleO
                PTL) first before we got cracking on the code base.  He
                indicated the approach was worth experimenting with.<br>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div> </div>
            <div>So I think it's a cool idea and worth looking at as you
              have said.  But I'm very confused by your statements, it
              seems to me that there's a misunderstanding, either in
              what Triple'O is, or something else entirely.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Given that Triple'O stands for Openstack On Openstack
              I'm not sure how you separate the OpenStack piece from the
              project?  Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not saying one
              way is better than the other etc.  just that the
              statements here are a bit confusing tome.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    John,<br>
    <br>
    There is a deployment program - tripleo is just one implementation. 
    We went through this with Heat and various projects that want to
    extend heat (eg Murano) and one big mistake I think Murano folks
    made was not figuring out where there code would go prior to writing
    it.  I'm only making a statement as to where I think it should
    belong.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAPWkaSWSy2yocJYaX2ozK3M66R+kaFGuvf156f3sosOG2B3F-w@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div>Also, it seems REALLY strange that Triple'O hasn't even
              graduated and my limited understanding is that it still
              has a ways to go and we're proposing alternate
              implementations of it.  Very odd IMO.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Our goal is deploying OpenStack using containers.  TripleO could
    have this same goal, but at the present it does not (I could be
    mistaken here, please feel free to correct if I am incorrect).  It
    rather prefers to deploy on bare metal.  We are just focusing on
    this particular point, (openstack in containers on bare metal).  I
    spoke with Robert for quite awhile about integration time and we
    were both in agreement early or late integration is not a concern
    for us - getting something working for containers seemed more
    compelling.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAPWkaSWSy2yocJYaX2ozK3M66R+kaFGuvf156f3sosOG2B3F-w@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div>That being said, I'd love to see some details on what
              you have in mind here.  I don't necessarily see why it
              needs to be an "OpenStack Project" per-say as opposed to a
              really cool Open Source Project for deploying OpenStack
              containers (or whatever it is exactly that you have in
              mind).  </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    It doesn't have to necessarily go into the deployment program.  My
    main motivation at this point for using stackforge and attaching it
    to OpenStack is I desperately want to use the OpenStack workflow
    since our workflow rocks!<br>
    <br>
    Regards<br>
    -steve<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAPWkaSWSy2yocJYaX2ozK3M66R+kaFGuvf156f3sosOG2B3F-w@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
                Regards<br>
                -steve<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite"><span class="">
                    <div
                      style="direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size:10pt">
                      Thanks,<br>
                      Kevin<br>
                      <div style="font-family:Times New
                        Roman;color:#000000;font-size:16px">
                        <hr>
                        <div style="direction:ltr"><font color="#000000"
                            face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Steven Dake [<a
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:sdake@redhat.com"
                              target="_blank">sdake@redhat.com</a>]<br>
                            <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 23, 2014
                            3:40 PM<br>
                            <b>To:</b> OpenStack Development Mailing
                            List<br>
                            <b>Subject:</b> [openstack-dev]
                            [all][tripleo] New Project -> Kolla:
                            Deploy and Manage OpenStack using Kubernetes
                            and Docker<br>
                          </font><br>
                        </div>
                        <div><b><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Hi
                              folks,</span></b><b
                            style="font-weight:normal"><b><br>
                            </b>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br>
                                I'm pleased to announce the development
                                of a new project Kolla which is Greek
                                for glue :). Kolla has a goal of
                                providing an implementation that deploys
                                OpenStack using Kubernetes and Docker.
                                This project will begin as a StackForge
                                project separate from the
                                TripleO/Deployment program code base.
                                Our long term goal is to merge into the
                                TripleO/Deployment program rather then
                                create a new program.<br>
                              </span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br>
                              </span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Docker
                                is a container technology for delivering
                                hermetically sealed applications and has
                                about 620 technical contributors [1]. We
                                intend to produce docker images for a
                                variety of platforms beginning with
                                Fedora 20. We are completely open to any
                                distro support, so if folks want to add
                                new Linux distribution to Kolla please
                                feel free to submit patches :)<br>
                              </span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><br>
                              <span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Kubernetes
                                at the most basic level is a Docker
                                scheduler produced by and used within
                                Google [2]. Kubernetes has in excess of
                                100 technical contributors. Kubernetes
                                is more then just a scheduler, it
                                provides additional functionality such
                                as load balancing and scaling and has a
                                significant roadmap.<br>
                              </span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br>
                                The #tripleo channel on Freenode will be
                                used for Kolla developer and user
                                communication. Even though we plan to
                                become part of the Deployment program
                                long term, as we experiment we believe
                                it is best to hold a separate weekly one
                                hour IRC meeting on Mondays at 2000 UTC
                                in #openstack-meeting [3].<br>
                              </span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br>
                                This project has been discussed with the
                                current TripleO PTL (Robert Collins) and
                                he seemed very supportive and agreed
                                with the organization of the project
                                outlined above. </span><span
                                style="font-weight:normal"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">James

                                  Slagle, a TripleO core developer, has
                                  kindly offered to liase between Kolla
                                  and the broader TripleO community. <br>
                                </span></span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
                                style="font-weight:normal"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br>
                                </span></span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">I
                                personally feel it is necessary to start
                                from a nearly empty repository when
                                kicking off a new project. As a result,
                                there is limited code in the repository
                                [4] at this time. I suspect folks will
                                start cranking out a kick-ass
                                implementation once the Kolla/Stackforge
                                integration support is reviewed by the
                                infra team [5].<br>
                              </span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><br>
                              <span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">The
                                initial core team is composed of Steven
                                Dake, Ryan Hallisey, James Lebocki, Jeff
                                Peeler, James Slagle, Lars
                                Kellogg-Sedman, and David Vossel. The
                                core team will be reviewed every 6 weeks
                                to add fresh developers.<br>
                              </span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br>
                                Please join the core team in designing
                                and inventing this rockin' new
                                technology!<br>
                              </span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br>
                                Regards<br>
                                -steve<br>
                              </span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><br>
                              <b>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</b><br>
                              <span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span></p>
                            <p dir="ltr"
                              style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><b><span
                                  style="font-weight:normal"></span></b></p>
                            <b>
                              <p dir="ltr"
                                style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><br>
                                <span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span></p>
                              <p dir="ltr"
                                style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[1]

                                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="https://github.com/docker/docker"
                                    target="_blank">
                                    https://github.com/docker/docker</a>
                                  [2] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="https://github.com/GoogleCloudPlatform/kubernetes"
                                    target="_blank">
                                    https://github.com/GoogleCloudPlatform/kubernetes</a><br>
                                </span></p>
                              <p dir="ltr"
                                style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[3]

                                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Kolla"
                                    target="_blank">
                                    https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Kolla</a>
                                  [4] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="https://github.com/jlabocki/superhappyfunshow"
                                    target="_blank">
                                    https://github.com/jlabocki/superhappyfunshow</a>
                                  [5] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="https://review.openstack.org/#/c/122972/"
                                    target="_blank">
                                    https://review.openstack.org/#/c/122972/</a></span></p>
                            </b><br>
                            <span
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                    <pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
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                target="_blank">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev</a><br>
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      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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