<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'trebuchet ms',sans-serif"><div>+1 </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><font color="#0000ff">I don't think it will be seen as punitive. Vendors can write their plugins or drivers when a deal occurs and they do not need to submit code to community </font><font color="#0000ff">and wait for approving. </font></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Being a third party vendor, i do not think this is punitive. OpenStack has already established through processes like cert tests via tempest, external CI, etc. However, waiting for months for reviews and some more days for next round of reviews is really disturbing.</div><div>Vendor plugins can always always provide repository links, cert tests, external CI logs, pep8 logs, flake8 logs, code coverage stats etc. to confirm if they are abiding by the OpenStack processes.</div><div> </div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" color="#000000" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Regards,</font></div><font style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" color="#000000" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Amit</font><div><a href="http://www.cloudbyte.com/" target="_blank"><font style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" color="#0000ff" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><i>CloudByte Inc.</i></font></a></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Germy Lure <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:germy.lure@gmail.com" target="_blank">germy.lure@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><font color="#0000ff"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Hi </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Salvatore,</span></font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><font color="#0000ff">Thanks for your hyperlink. It's really a monster thread that contains everyone's opinion. But it's useful to me.</font></span></div><div><font color="#0000ff">So, Before we focus on the Neutron core itself, we should firstly release a suite standardized APIs and a framework for vendors' codes.</font></div><div><font color="#0000ff">About this job, I think most of it is already OK. We have 20+ monolithic plugins following NB API and plugin framework.</font></div><div><font color="#0000ff">We need publish an API doc for internal interface(I prefer to call it SB API, stand on the Neutron core's point to consider, vendors' codes</font></div><div><font color="#0000ff">do not belong to core.) and other things unsuitable now.</font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div><div><font color="#0000ff">In my opinion, the Neutron core's main responsibility is data model and DB, schedule and dispatch, API and validation, framework and workflow.</font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div><div><font color="#0000ff">Some more comments inline.</font></div><span class=""><div><br></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">This is a very important discussion - very closely related to the one going on in this other thread </span><a href="http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-September/045768.html" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px" target="_blank">http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-September/045768.html</a><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">.</span><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Unfortunately it is also a discussion that tends to easily fragment and move in a thousand different directions.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">A few months ago I was too of the opinion that vendor plugins and drivers were the main reason of unnecessary load for the core team. I still think that they're an unnecessary heavy load, but I reckon the problem does not really lies with open source versus vendor code. It lies in matching people's competencies with subsystems and proper interface across them - as already pointed out in this thread.</div></span><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><font color="#0000ff">Yes, it's really important.</font></div><span class=""><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">I have some more comments inline, but unless growing another monster thread I'd rather start a different, cross-project discussion (which will hopefully not become just a cross-project monster thread!)</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div></span><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Salvatore<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><span>On 15 September 2014 08:29, Germy Lure <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:germy.lure@gmail.com" target="_blank">germy.lure@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><font color="#0b5394">Obviously, to a vendor's plugin/driver, the most important thing is API.Yes?</font><div><font color="#0b5394">NB API for a monolithic plugin or a service plugin and SB API for a service driver or agent, even MD. That's the basic.</font></div><div><font color="#0b5394">Now we have released a set of NB APIs with relative stability. The SB APIs' standardization are needed.</font></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>The internal interface between the API and the plugins is standardized at the moment through use of classes like [1]. A similar interface exists for ML2 drivers [2].</div></span><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">To the monolithic plugins, [1] is useful. Vendors can implement those APIs and keep their codes locally.</span><br></div><span class=""><div><br></div><div>At the moment the dispatch of an API call to the plugin or from a plugin to a ML2 driver is purely a local call so these interfaces are working fairly well at the moment. I don't know yet however whether they will be sufficient in case plugins are split into different repos. ML2 Driver maintainers have however been warned in the past that the driver interface is to be considered internal and can be changed at any time. This does not apply to the plugin interface which has been conceived in this way to facilitate the development of out of tree plugins.</div></span><div><font color="#0000ff">Indeed, it's difficult to split MDs from ML2 plugin framework. I think it need some adaption.</font></div><span class=""><div><br></div><div>On the other hand, if by SB interfaces you are referring to the RPC interfaces for communicating between the servers and the various plugin, I would say that they should be considered internal at the moment.</div><div><br></div><div>[1] <a href="https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/neutron/neutron_plugin_base_v2.py#L28" target="_blank">https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/neutron/neutron_plugin_base_v2.py#L28</a><br></div><div>[2] <a href="https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/neutron/plugins/ml2/driver_api.py" target="_blank">https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/neutron/plugins/ml2/driver_api.py</a></div><span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><font color="#0b5394"><br></font></div><div><font color="#0b5394">Some comments inline.</font></div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Kevin Benton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:blak111@gmail.com" target="_blank">blak111@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>> So my suggestion is remove all vendors' plugins and drivers except opensource as built-in.</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, I think this is currently the view held by the PTL (Kyle) and some of the other cores so what you're suggesting will definitely come up at the summit. </div></div></blockquote><div><font color="#0b5394">Good! </font></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>The discussion however will not be that different from the one we're seeing on that huge thread on splitting out drivers, which has become in my opinion a frankenthread.</div><div>Nevertheless, that thread points out that this is far from being merely a neutron topic (despite neutron being the project with the highest number of drivers and plugins). </div><span><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div><br>> Why do we need a different repo to store vendors' codes? That's not the community business.</div><div>> I think only a proper architecture and normal NB&SB API can bring "a clear separation between plugins(or drivers) and core code", not a different repo.</div><div><br></div><div>The problem is that that architecture won't stay stable if there is no shared community plugin depending on its stability. Let me ask you the inverse question. Why do you think the reference driver should stay in the core repo? </div><div><br></div><div>A separate repo won't have an impact on what is packaged and released so it should have no impact on "user experience", "complete versions", "providing code examples", or "developing new features". In fact, it will likely help with the last two because it will provide a clear delineation between what a plugin is responsible for vs. what the core API is responsible for. And, because new cores can be added faster to the open source plugins repo due to a smaller code base to learn, it will help with developing new features by reducing reviewer load.</div></div></blockquote><div><font color="#0b5394">OK, the key point is that vendors' code should be kept by themselves NOT by the community. But in the same time, the community should provide</font></div><div><font color="#0b5394">some open source reference as standard examples for those new cores and vendors. </font></div><div><font color="#0b5394">U are right, "A separate repo won't have an impact on what is packaged and released". The open source can stays in the core repo or a different one. </font></div><div><font color="#0b5394">In any case, we need them there for referencing and version releasing.</font></div><div><font color="#0b5394">Any vendor would not maintain the open source codes, the community only.</font></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I think that we are probably focusing too much on the "separate repo" issue, which is probably being seen as punitive for drivers and plugins.</div><div>The separate repo would be just a possible tool for achieving the goal of reducing the review load imposed by drivers on the core team while keeping them part of the integrated release.</div></span><div><font color="#0000ff">I don't think it will be seen as punitive. Vendors can write their plugins or drivers when a deal occurs and they do not need to submit code to community</font></div><div><font color="#0000ff">and wait for approving. The community dose not need to waste energy to review those codes.</font></div><div><font color="#0000ff">If we must give a cause to keep vendors codes in the same or different repos, I think just installation-automatic. Similar to Linux kernel, user installs system on different hardware platform, and the system discovers the type of CPU, NIC, etc. and loads the right driver for that device. But OpenStack is not Linux, they are different.</font></div><span class=""><div><br></div><div>Regarding the "open source reference" solution... first there's no such thing like this. The fact that the upstream gate tests ML2 + OVS mech driver implicitly seem to make this the "reference", but this has not been sanctioned anywhere; second, the Neutron source tree does not just have a "reference plugin". It also has the DHCP agent, the OVS agent, the L3 agent, which implement also the management plane of a network virtualization system which uses OVS, iptables and other tools as its datapath. This is just for saying that when we talk about "splitting stuff from the main repo" there is more than just vendor plugin and drivers. It's more about giving control of subsystems to the people which are truly experts of that subsystem. I don't know whether splitting repositories would be the way to go.</div></span><div><font color="#0000ff">Splitting into different repos is helpful to standardizing APIs. We can also split those agents into separate repo as sub modules. This is, I think, the next stage after vendors' codes splitting.</font></div><div><br></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra">BR,</div><div class="gmail_extra">Germy</div></div>
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