<div dir="ltr">I'm fairly certain the buzzing sound I can hear is a bee in my bonnet... so I suspect that I'm starting to sound like someone chasing a bee that only they can hear. I'm not sure if it's helpful to keep this discussion on this list - would there be a better forum somewhere else?<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Thierry Carrez <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thierry@openstack.org" target="_blank">thierry@openstack.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="">James Polley wrote:<br>
><br>
> > However, Thierry pointed<br>
> > to <a href="https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation/Structure" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation/Structure</a><br>
> which<br>
> > still refers to Project Technical Leads and says explicitly that they<br>
> > lead individual projects, not programs. I actually have edit access to<br>
> > that page, so I could at least update that with a simple<br>
> > "s/Project/Program/", if I was sure that was the right thing to do.<br>
><br>
> Don't underestimate how stale wiki pages can become! Yes, fix it.<br>
><br>
> I don't know if I've fixed it, but I've certainly replaced all users of<br>
> the word Project with Program.<br>
><br>
> Whether or not it now matches reality, I'm not sure.<br>
><br>
> I alsp removed (what I assume is) a stale reference to the PPB and added<br>
> a new heading for the TC.<br>
<br>
</div>It looks correct to me, thanks!<br>
<div class=""><br>
> > <a href="http://www.openstack.org/" target="_blank">http://www.openstack.org/</a> has a link in the bottom nav that says<br>
> > "Projects"; it points to <a href="http://www.openstack.org/projects/" target="_blank">http://www.openstack.org/projects/</a> which<br>
> > redirects to <a href="http://www.openstack.org/software/" target="_blank">http://www.openstack.org/software/</a> which has a list of<br>
> > things like "Compute" and "Storage" - which as far as I know are<br>
> > Programs, not Projects. I don't know how to update that link in<br>
> the nav<br>
> > panel.<br>
><br>
> That's because the same word ("compute") is used for two different<br>
> things: a program name ("Compute") and an "official OpenStack name" for<br>
> a project ("OpenStack Compute a.k.a. Nova"). Basically official<br>
> OpenStack names reduce confusion for newcomers ("What is Nova ?"), but<br>
> they confuse old-timers at some point ("so the Compute program produces<br>
> Nova a.k.a. OpenStack Compute ?").<br>
><br>
><br>
> That's confusing to me. I had thought that part of the reason for the<br>
> separation was to enable a level of indirection - if the Compute program<br>
> team decide that a new project called (for example) SuperNova should be<br>
> the main project, that just means that Openstack Compute is now a<br>
> pointer to a different project, supported by the same program team.<br>
><br>
> It sounds like that isn't the intent though?<br>
<br>
</div>That's more of a side-effect than the intent, IMHO. The indirection we<br>
created is between teams and code repositories. </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=""><br>
> > I wasn't around when the original Programs/Projects discussion was<br>
> > happening - which, I suspect, has a lot to do with why I'm confused<br>
> > today - it seems as though people who were around at the time<br>
> understand<br>
> > the difference, but people who have joined since then are relying on<br>
> > multiple conflicting verbal definitions. I believe, though,<br>
> > that<br>
> <a href="http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-June/010821.html" target="_blank">http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-June/010821.html</a><br>
> > was one of the earliest starting points of the discussion. That page<br>
> > points at <a href="https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Projects" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Projects</a>, which today<br>
> contains<br>
> > a list of Programs. That page does have a definition of what a Program<br>
> > is, but doesn't explain what a Project is or how they relate to<br>
> > Programs. This page seems to be locked down, so I can't edit it.<br>
><br>
> <a href="https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Projects" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Projects</a> was renamed to<br>
> <a href="https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Programs" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Programs</a> with the wiki helpfully leaving<br>
> a redirect behind. So the content you are seeing here is the "Programs"<br>
> wiki page, which is why it doesn't define "projects".<br>
><br>
> We don't really use the word "project" that much anymore, we prefer to<br>
> talk about code repositories. Programs are teams working on a set of<br>
> code repositories. Some of those code repositories may appear in the<br>
> integrated release.<br>
><br>
> This explanation of the difference between projects and programs sounds<br>
> like it would be useful to add to /Programs - but I can't edit that page.<br>
<br>
</div>This page reflects the official list of programs, which is why it's<br>
protected. it's supposed to be replaced by an automatic publication from<br>
<a href="http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/reference/programs.yaml" target="_blank">http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/reference/programs.yaml</a><br>
which is the ultimate source of truth on that topic.<br></blockquote><div><br>I was going to ask about the reference to "The process new projects can follow to become an Integrated project" - is that intended to refer to a project or a program?<br>
<br></div><div>But then I read <a href="https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116727/">https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116727/</a> and and <a href="http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/reference/incubation-integration-requirements.rst">http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/reference/incubation-integration-requirements.rst</a>, seem to make it clear that it's entirely possible that the Kitty program might have a mix of Integrated and non-Integrated projects.<br>
</div><div><br>Is it safe to assume that the Governance repo is canonical and up-to-date, and rework the wiki pages based on the information in the Governance repo?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=""><br>
> [1] <a href="https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ProjectTypes" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ProjectTypes</a><br>
><br>
> I *can* edit that page; I'd like to bring it up-to-date. It seems like a<br>
> good basis for explaining the difference between Programs and Projects<br>
> and the historical reasons for the split. I'll aim to take a stab at<br>
> this next week.<br>
<br>
</div>Please feel free to do so, however that page is really an artifact of<br>
the old way we were structured, and is therefore useful as an historic<br>
leftover :) It's not linked from anywhere those days. Maybe you should<br>
create a new page, like<br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Projects_vs_Programs" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Projects_vs_Programs</a> ? What you want to<br>
talk about is not really about "Project Types" anyway.</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=""><div class="h5"><br>
--<br>
Thierry Carrez (ttx)<br>
<br>
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