<div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Stephen</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">See
inline comments.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Susanne</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">-----------------------------------------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Susanne--</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I think you are conflating the difference between
"OpenStack incubation" and "Neutron incubator." These are
two very different matters and should be treated separately. So, addressing
each one individually:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">"OpenStack Incubation"</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I think this has been the end-goal of Octavia
all along and continues to be the end-goal. Under this scenario, Octavia is its
own stand-alone project with its own PTL and core developer team, its own
governance, and should eventually become part of the integrated OpenStack
release. No project ever starts out as "OpenStack incubated."</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">[Susanne] I totally agree that the end goal is for Neutron LBaaS
to become its own incubated project. I did miss the nuance that was pointed out
by Mestery in an earlier email that if a Neutron incubator project wants to
become a separate project it will have to apply for incubation again or at that
time. It was my understanding that such a Neutron incubated project would be
grandfathered in but again we do not have much details on the process yet.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">To me Octavia is a driver so it is very hard to me to think of
it as a standalone project. It needs the new Neutron LBaaS v2 to function which
is why I think of them together. This of course can change since we can add
whatever layers we want to Octavia.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">"Neutron Incubator"</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">This has only become a serious discussion in
the last few weeks and has yet to land, so there are many assumptions about
this which don't pan out (either because of purposeful design and governance
decisions, or because of how this project actually ends up being implemented
from a practical standpoint). But given the inherent limitations about making
statements with so many unknowns, the following seem fairly clear from what has
been shared so far:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:83.25pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Neutron incubator is
the on-ramp for projects which should eventually become a part of Neutron
itself.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:83.25pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Projects which enter
the Neutron incubator on-ramp should be fairly close to maturity in their final
form. I think the intent here is for them to live in incubator for 1 or 2
cycles before either being merged into Neutron core, or being ejected (as
abandoned, or as a separate project).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:83.25pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Neutron incubator
projects effectively do not have their own PTL and core developer team, and do
not have their own governance.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">[Susanne] Ok I missed
the last point. In an earlier discussion Mestery implied that an incubated project
would have at least one or two of its own cores. Maybe that changed between now
and then.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:29.25pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">In addition we know the following about
Neutron LBaaS and Octavia:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:76.5pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">It's already
(informally?) agreed that the ultimate long-term place for a LBaaS solution is
probably to be spun out into its own project, which might appropriately live
under a yet-to-be-defined master "Networking" project. (This would
make Neutron, LBaaS, VPNaaS, FWaaS, etc. effective "peer" projects
under the Networking umbrella.) Since this "Networking"
umbrella project has even less defined about it than Neutron incubator, it's
impossible to know whether being a part of Neutron incubator would be of any
benefit to Octavia (or, conversely, to Neutron incubator) at all as an on-ramp
to becoming part of "Networking." Presumably, Octavia</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">might</span></i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> fit well under the "Networking" umbrella-- but,
again, with nothing defined there it's impossible to draw any reasonable
conclusions at this time.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">[Susanne] We are in
agreement here. This was the reasons we had the ad-hoc meeting in Atlanta so
get a feel for hw people felt if we made Neutron LBaaS its own project and also
how we got an operator large scale LBaaS that fit most of our service provider
requirements. I am just worried because you keep on talking of Octavia as a
standaloe project. To me it is an extension of Neutron LBaaS or of a new LBaaS ….
I do not see us (== me) use Octavia in a non OpenStack context. And yes it is a
driver that I am hoping we all expect to become the reference implementation
for LBaaS.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:76.5pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">When the LBaaS
component spins out of Neutron, it will more than likely not be Octavia.
Octavia is</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">intentionally</span></i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">less friendly to 3rd party load balancer
vendors both because it's envisioned that Octavia would just be another
implementation which lives along-side said 3rd party vendor products (plugging
into a higher level LBaaS layer via a driver), and because we don't want to
have to compromise certain design features of Octavia to meet the lowest common
denominator 3rd party vendor product. (3rd party vendors are welcome, but we
will not make design compromises to meet the needs of a proprietary product--
compatibility with available open-source products and standards trumps this.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">[Susanne] Ok now I am
confused… But I agree with you that it need to focus on our use cases. I
remember us discussing Octavia being the refenece implementation for OpenStack LBaaS
(whatever that is). Has that changed while I was on vacation?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.25in;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">The
end-game for the above point is: In the future I see "Openstack
LBaaS" (or whatever the project calls itself) being a separate but
complimentary project to Octavia.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:76.5pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">While its true that we
would like Octavia to become the reference implementation for Neutron LBaaS, we
are nowhere near being able to deliver on that. Attempting to become a part of
Neutron LBaaS right now is likely just to create frustration (and very little
merged code) for both the Octavia and Neutron teams.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">[Susanne] Agreed. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">So given that the only code in Octavia right
now are a few database migrations, we are very, very far away from being ready
for either OpenStack incubation or the Neutron incubator project. I don't think
it's very useful to be spending time right now worrying about either of these
outcomes: We should be working on Octavia!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">[Susanne] Agreed. You
suggested we discuss this on the ML NOW. I wanted to wait until the summit
given that we would have more info on Neutron incubation, etc. I haven’t seen
much written down on the Neutron incubator project so most of what we are doing
is guessing….</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Please also understand: I realize that
probably the reason you're asking this right now is because you have a mandate
within your organization to use only "official" OpenStack branded
components, and if Octavia doesn't fall within that category, you won't be able
to use it. Of course everyone working on this project wants to make that
happen too, so we're doing everything we can to make sure we don't jeopardize
that possibility. And there are enough voices in this project that want that to
happen, so I think if we strayed from the path to get there, there would be
sufficient clangor over this that it would be hard to miss. But I don't think
there's anyone at all at this time that can honestly give you a promise that
Octavia definitely will be incubated and will definitely end up in the
integrated OpenStack release.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">If you want to increase the chances of that
happening, please help push the project forward!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">[Susanne] That is what HP is doing. Remember we were here from
the beginning helping change the direction for LBaaS.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Stephen</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"> </p></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 9:52 PM, Stephen Balukoff <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sbalukoff@bluebox.net" target="_blank">sbalukoff@bluebox.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Susanne--<div><br></div><div>I think you are conflating the difference between "OpenStack incubation" and "Neutron incubator." These are two very different matters and should be treated separately. So, addressing each one individually:</div>
<div><br></div><div><b>"OpenStack Incubation"</b></div><div>I think this has been the end-goal of Octavia all along and continues to be the end-goal. Under this scenario, Octavia is its own stand-alone project with its own PTL and core developer team, its own governance, and should eventually become part of the integrated OpenStack release. No project ever starts out as "OpenStack incubated."</div>
<div><br></div><div><b>"Neutron Incubator"</b></div><div>This has only become a serious discussion in the last few weeks and has yet to land, so there are many assumptions about this which don't pan out (either because of purposeful design and governance decisions, or because of how this project actually ends up being implemented from a practical standpoint). But given the inherent limitations about making statements with so many unknowns, the following seem fairly clear from what has been shared so far:</div>
<div><ul><li>Neutron incubator is the on-ramp for projects which should eventually become a part of Neutron itself.</li><li>Projects which enter the Neutron incubator on-ramp should be fairly close to maturity in their final form. I think the intent here is for them to live in incubator for 1 or 2 cycles before either being merged into Neutron core, or being ejected (as abandoned, or as a separate project).</li>
<li>Neutron incubator projects effectively do not have their own PTL and core developer team, and do not have their own governance.</li></ul><div>In addition we know the following about Neutron LBaaS and Octavia:</div><div>
<ul><li>It's already (informally?) agreed that the ultimate long-term place for a LBaaS solution is probably to be spun out into its own project, which might appropriately live under a yet-to-be-defined master "Networking" project. (This would make Neutron, LBaaS, VPNaaS, FWaaS, etc. effective "peer" projects under the Networking umbrella.) Since this "Networking" umbrella project has even less defined about it than Neutron incubator, it's impossible to know whether being a part of Neutron incubator would be of any benefit to Octavia (or, conversely, to Neutron incubator) at all as an on-ramp to becoming part of "Networking." Presumably, Octavia <i>might</i> fit well under the "Networking" umbrella-- but, again, with nothing defined there it's impossible to draw any reasonable conclusions at this time.</li>
<li>When the LBaaS component spins out of Neutron, it will more than likely not be Octavia. Octavia is <i>intentionally</i> less friendly to 3rd party load balancer vendors both because it's envisioned that Octavia would just be another implementation which lives along-side said 3rd party vendor products (plugging into a higher level LBaaS layer via a driver), and because we don't want to have to compromise certain design features of Octavia to meet the lowest common denominator 3rd party vendor product. (3rd party vendors are welcome, but we will not make design compromises to meet the needs of a proprietary product-- compatibility with available open-source products and standards trumps this.)</li>
<li>The end-game for the above point is: In the future I see "Openstack LBaaS" (or whatever the project calls itself) being a separate but complimentary project to Octavia.</li><li>While its true that we would like Octavia to become the reference implementation for Neutron LBaaS, we are nowhere near being able to deliver on that. Attempting to become a part of Neutron LBaaS right now is likely just to create frustration (and very little merged code) for both the Octavia and Neutron teams.</li>
</ul></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div>So given that the only code in Octavia right now are a few database migrations, we are very, very far away from being ready for either OpenStack incubation or the Neutron incubator project. I don't think it's very useful to be spending time right now worrying about either of these outcomes: We should be working on Octavia!</div>
<div><br></div><div>Please also understand: I realize that probably the reason you're asking this right now is because you have a mandate within your organization to use only "official" OpenStack branded components, and if Octavia doesn't fall within that category, you won't be able to use it. Of course everyone working on this project wants to make that happen too, so we're doing everything we can to make sure we don't jeopardize that possibility. And there are enough voices in this project that want that to happen, so I think if we strayed from the path to get there, there would be sufficient clangor over this that it would be hard to miss. But I don't think there's anyone at all at this time that can honestly give you a promise that Octavia definitely will be incubated and will definitely end up in the integrated OpenStack release.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If you want to increase the chances of that happening, please help push the project forward!</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Stephen</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Susanne Balle <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sleipnir012@gmail.com" target="_blank">sleipnir012@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px"> I would like to discuss the pros and cons of putting Octavia into the Neutron LBaaS incubator project right away. If it is going to be the reference implementation for LBaaS v 2 then I believe Octavia belong in Neutron LBaaS v2 incubator. </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px">The Pros:</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px">
* Octavia is in Openstack incubation right away along with the lbaas v2 code. We do not have to apply for incubation later on. </div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px">
* As incubation project we have our own core and should be able ot commit our code</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px">* We are starting out as an OpenStack incubated project</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px">The Cons:</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px">
* Not sure of the velocity of the project</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px">* Incubation not well defined.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px">
<br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px">If Octavia starts as a standalone stackforge project we are assuming that it would be looked favorable on when time is to move it into incubated status.</div>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px">Susanne</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;padding-left:0px">
<br></div><div><br></div></font></span></div>
<br></div></div><div class="">_______________________________________________<br>
OpenStack-dev mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org" target="_blank">OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev" target="_blank">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev</a><br>
<br></div></blockquote></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><span></span>Stephen Balukoff
<br>Blue Box Group, LLC
<br><a href="tel:%28800%29613-4305%20x807" value="+18006134305" target="_blank">(800)613-4305 x807</a>
</font></span></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
OpenStack-dev mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org">OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev" target="_blank">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>