<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 11:32 AM, Zane Bitter <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:zbitter@redhat.com" target="_blank">zbitter@redhat.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="">On 22/08/14 11:19, Thierry Carrez wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Zane Bitter wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On 22/08/14 08:33, Thierry Carrez wrote:<br>
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We also<br>
still need someone to have the final say in case of deadlocked issues.<br>
</blockquote>
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-1 we really don't.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I know we disagree on that :)<br>
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No problem, you and I work in different programs so we can both get our way ;)<div class=""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
People say we don't have that many deadlocks in OpenStack for which the<br>
PTL ultimate power is needed, so we could get rid of them. I'd argue<br>
that the main reason we don't have that many deadlocks in OpenStack is<br>
precisely *because* we have a system to break them if they arise.<br>
</blockquote>
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s/that many/any/ IME and I think that threatening to break a deadlock by<br>
fiat is just as bad as actually doing it. And by 'bad' I mean<br>
community-poisoningly, trust-destroyingly bad.<br>
</blockquote>
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I guess I've been active in too many dysfunctional free and open source<br>
software projects -- I put a very high value on the ability to make a<br>
final decision. Not being able to make a decision is about as<br>
community-poisoning, and also results in inability to make any<br>
significant change or decision.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I'm all for getting a final decision, but a 'final' decision that has been imposed from outside rather than internalised by the participants is... rarely final.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The expectation of a PTL isn't to stomp around and make "final" decisions, it's to step in when necessary and help both sides find the best solution. To moderate.</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I have yet to see a deadlock in Heat that wasn't resolved by better communication.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Moderation == bettering communication. I'm under the impression that you and Thierry are agreeing here, just from opposite ends of the same spectrum.</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
That<br>
encourages everyone to find a lazy consensus. That part of the PTL job<br>
works. Let's fix the part that doesn't work (scaling/burnout).<br>
</blockquote>
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Let's allow projects to decide for themselves what works. Not every<br>
project is the same.<br>
</blockquote>
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The net effect of not having a PTL having the final call means the final<br>
call would reside at the Technical Committee level. I don't feel like<br>
the Technical Committee should have final say on a project-specific<br>
matter. It's way better that the local leader, chosen by all the<br>
contributors of THAT project every 6 months, makes that final decision.<br>
Or do you also want to get rid of the Technical Committee ?<br>
</blockquote>
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Haha, I don't want to get rid of the TC, but I agree that having them stepping in to resolve technical disputes by fiat within projects is strictly worse than having the PTL do it. I think the TC's role is to offer guidance in the first instance, and if necessary say to a project "if you can't find a way to productively work together like adults, we're going to kick you out of OpenStack". I don't expect the latter power to ever be needed.<br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
Zane.<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
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