<div dir="ltr">Hello Mitsuhiro,<div>I'm sorry, but I remain unconvinced. Is there a customer demand for this feature?<br>If you'd like, feel free to add this topic to a Cinder weekly meeting agenda, and join the meeting so that we can have an interactive discussion.</div>
<div><a href="https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CinderMeetings">https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CinderMeetings</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Avishay<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 12:31 AM, Mitsuhiro Tanino <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mitsuhiro.tanino@hds.com" target="_blank">mitsuhiro.tanino@hds.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Hi Avishay-san,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Thank you for your review and comments for my proposal. I commented in-line.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">>>So the way I see it, the value here is a generic driver that can work with any storage. The downsides:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">A generic
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"></span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">driver for any storage is an one of benefit.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">But main benefit of proposed driver is as follows.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">- Reduce hardware based storage workload by offloading the workload to software based volume operation.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Conventionally, operations to a</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">n</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">
enterprise storage such as volume creation, deletion, snapshot, etc<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">are only permitted system administrator and they handle these operations after carefully examining.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">In OpenStack cloud environment, every user have a permission to execute these storage operations<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">via cinder. As a result, workloads of storages have been increasing and it is difficult to manage<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">the workloads.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">If we have two drivers in regards to a storage, we can use both way as the situation demands.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">E</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">x</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"> As for "Standard" type storage, use
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">proposed
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">software based LVM cinder driver.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"> As for "High performance" type storage, use hardware based cinder driver.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">As a result, we can offload the workload of standard type storage from physical storage to cinder host.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">>>1. The admin has to manually provision a very big volume and attach it to the Nova and Cinder hosts.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">>> Every time a host is rebooted,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">I thinks current FC-based cinder drivers using scsi scan to find created LU.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"># echo "- - -" > /sys/class/scsi_host/host#/scan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">The admin can find additional LU using this, so host reboot are not required.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">>> or introduced, the admin must do manual work. This is one of the things OpenStack should be trying
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">>> to avoid. This can't be automated without a driver, which is what you're trying to avoid.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Yes. Some admin manual work is required and can</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">’</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">t
be automated.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">I would like to know whether these operations are acceptab</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">l</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">e
range to enjoy benefits from<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">my proposed driver.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">>>2. You lose on performance to volumes by adding another layer in the stack.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">I think this is case by case. When user use a cinder volume for D</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">ATA
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">B</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">ASE</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">,
they prefer<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">raw volume and proposed driver ca</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">n’</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">t
provide raw </span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">cinder
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">volume.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">In this case, I recom</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">m</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">e</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">n</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">d
"High performance" type storage.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">LVM is a defa</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">u</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">lt
feature in many Linux distribution. Also LVM is used many enterprise<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">sy</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">s</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">tems
and I think there is not critical performance loss.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">>>3. You lose performance with snapshots - appliances will almost certainly have more efficient snapshots<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">>> than LVM over network (consider that for every COW operation, you are reading synchronously over the network).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">>> (Basically, you turned your fully-capable storage appliance into a dumb JBOD)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">I agree that storage has efficient COW snapshot feature, so we can create new Boot Volume<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">from glance quickly. In this case, I recomme</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">n</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">d
"High performance" type storage.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">LVM can</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">’</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">t
create nested snapshot with shared LVM now. Therefore, we can</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">’</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">t
assign<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">writ</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">a</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">ble
LVM snapshot to instances.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Is this answer for your
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">comment</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">>> In short, I think the cons outweigh the pros. Are there people deploying OpenStack who would deploy
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">>> their storage like this?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Please consider
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">above</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"> main
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">benefit</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Mitsuhiro Tanino <<a href="http://mitsuhiro.tanino@hds.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">mitsuhiro.tanino@hds.com</span></a>><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">
<b>HITACHI DATA SYSTEMS<u></u><u></u></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"> c/o Red Hat, 314 Littleton Road, Westford, MA 01886<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Avishay Traeger [mailto:<a href="mailto:avishay@stratoscale.com" target="_blank">avishay@stratoscale.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 21, 2014 4:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Tomoki Sekiyama<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [openstack-dev] [Cinder] Support LVM on a shared LU<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">So the way I see it, the value here is a generic driver that can work with any storage. The downsides:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">1. The admin has to manually provision a very big volume and attach it to the Nova and Cinder hosts. Every time a host is rebooted, or introduced, the admin must do manual work. This is one of the things OpenStack
should be trying to avoid. This can't be automated without a driver, which is what you're trying to avoid.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">2. You lose on performance to volumes by adding another layer in the stack.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">3. You lose performance with snapshots - appliances will almost certainly have more efficient snapshots than LVM over network (consider that for every COW operation, you are reading synchronously over the network).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">(Basically, you turned your fully-capable storage appliance into a dumb JBOD)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">In short, I think the cons outweigh the pros. Are there people deploying OpenStack who would deploy their storage like this?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:0.5in">
Thanks,<br>
Avishay<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 6:31 PM, Mitsuhiro Tanino <<a href="mailto:mitsuhiro.tanino@hds.com" target="_blank">mitsuhiro.tanino@hds.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
Hello All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
I’m proposing a feature of LVM driver to support LVM on a shared LU.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
The proposed LVM volume driver provides these benefits.<br>
- Reduce hardware based storage workload by offloading the workload to software based volume operation.<br>
- Provide quicker volume creation and snapshot creation without storage workloads.<br>
- Enable cinder to any kinds of shared storage volumes without specific cinder storage driver.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
- Better I/O performance using direct volume access via Fibre channel.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
In the attachment pdf, following contents are explained.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
1. Detail of Proposed LVM volume driver<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
1-1. Big Picture<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
1-2. Administrator preparation<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
1-3. Work flow of volume creation and attachment<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
2. Target of Proposed LVM volume driver<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
3. Comparison of Proposed LVM volume driver<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
Could you review the attachment?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
Any comments, questions, additional ideas would be appreciated.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
Also there are blueprints, wiki and patches related to the slide.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
<a href="https://blueprints.launchpad.net/cinder/+spec/lvm-driver-for-shared-storage" target="_blank">https://blueprints.launchpad.net/cinder/+spec/lvm-driver-for-shared-storage</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
<a href="https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/lvm-driver-for-shared-storage" target="_blank">https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/lvm-driver-for-shared-storage</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
<a href="https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Cinder/NewLVMbasedDriverForSharedStorageInCinder" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Cinder/NewLVMbasedDriverForSharedStorageInCinder</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
<a href="https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92479/" target="_blank">https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92479/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
<a href="https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92443/" target="_blank">https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92443/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
<span style="color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
<span style="color:black">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">
<span style="color:black">Mitsuhiro Tanino <<a href="http://mitsuhiro.tanino@hds.com" target="_blank">mitsuhiro.tanino@hds.com</a>></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<span style="color:black"> <b>HITACHI DATA SYSTEMS</b></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<span style="color:black"> c/o Red Hat, 314 Littleton Road, Westford, MA 01886</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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