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<div>On May 9, 2014, at 3:37 PM, Samuel Bercovici <<a href="mailto:SamuelB@Radware.com">SamuelB@Radware.com</a>></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">It boils down to two aspects:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span>1.<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">How
common is it for tenant to care about affinity or have more than a single VIP used in a way that adding an additional (mandatory) construct makes sense for them to handle?</span></div>
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<div> No one is advocating considering a loadbalancer object for the purpose of adding multiple vips ports etc. We are arguing for loadbalancer objects because that models reality better. It would be expected that if a customer wants to modify a loadbalancer
they would address it by their loadbalancer_id and update the attributes on it. I know of no users who conceptualizes loadbalancers as IP addresses. Instead they think of a loadbalancer as an object that contains incoming IP addresses, with a bunch of rules
and out going connections to pools on the back end. </div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">For example if 99% of users do not care about affinity or will only use a single VIP (with multiple listeners). In this case does adding an additional object that tenants
need to know about makes sense?</span></div>
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<div> Again multiple vips listeners or ports was never the premise for our argument to begin with. Likewise your second sentence doesn't apply since your suggesting. </div>
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<div> For us it boils down to this question.</div>
<div>1. How does it make sense to have a Loadbalancing API that does not have any way to actually address a logical loadbalancer. </div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span>2.<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Scheduling
this so that it can be handled efficiently by different vendors and SLAs. We can elaborate on this F2F next week.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div> Do you need us to provide you with a solution? Is that whats at stake here. Is radware for some reason incapable of wrapping their vips into a logical loadbalancer object. Is this really driving you to the point where you force would fore the user
to work with vips only when they really intended to interact with Loadbalancers. When a user has a problem do they ask you "I'm having a problem with my loadbalancer" or do they instead ask "Can you help me, it seems my VIP is broken". If so let us know as
we'd like to help.</div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Can providers share their statistics to assist to understand how common are those use cases?</span></div>
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<div> I'm hoping by now every one realizes why we're asking for a loadbalancer object, and refrain from trying to get advocates of loadbalancer objects to justify why they need multiple vips and ports. Thats a completely disconnected discussion.</div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> -Sam.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stephen Balukoff [mailto:sbalukoff@<a href="http://bluebox.net">bluebox.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 09, 2014 9:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [openstack-dev] [Neutron][LBaaS] API proposal review thoughts<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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Hi Eugene,<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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This assumes that 'VIP' is an entity that can contain both an IPv4 address and an IPv6 address. This is how it is in the API proposal and corresponding object model that I suggested, but it is a slight re-definition of the term "virtual IP" as it's used in
the rest of the industry. (And again, we're not yet in agreement that 'VIP' should actually contain two ip addresses like this.)<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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In my mind, the main reasons I would like to see the container object are:<o:p></o:p></div>
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It solves the colocation / apolcation (or affinity / anti-affinity) problem for VIPs in a way that is much more intuitive to understand and less confusing for users than either the "hints" included in my API, or something based off the nova blueprint for doing
the same for virtual servers/containers. (Full disclosure: There probably would still be a need for some anti-affinity logic at the logical load balancer level as well, though at this point it would be an operator concern only and expressed to the user in
the "flavor" of the logical load balancer object, and probably be associated with different billing strategies. "The user wants a dedicated physical load balancer? Then he should create one with this flavor, and note that it costs this much more...")<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">
>From my experience, users are already familiar with the concept of what a logical load balancer actually is (ie. something that resembles a physical or virtual appliance from their perspective). So this probably fits into their view of the world better.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">
It makes sense for "Load Balancer as a Service" to hand out logical load balancer objects. I think this will aid in a more intuitive understanding of the service for users who otherwise don't want to be concerned with operations.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">
This opens up the option for private cloud operators / providers to bill based on number of physical load balancers used (if the "logical load balancer" happens to coincide with physical load balancer appliances in their implementation) in a way that is going
to be seen as "more fair" and "more predictable" to the user because the user has more control over it. And it seems to me this is accomplished without producing any undue burden on public cloud providers, those who don't bill this way, or those for whom the
"logical load balancer" doesn't coincide with physical load balancer appliances.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">
Attaching a "flavor" attribute to a logical load balancer seems like a better idea than attaching it to the VIP. What if the user wants to change the flavor on which their VIP is deployed (ie. without changing IP addresses)? What if they want to do this for
several VIPs at once? I can definitely see this happening in our customer base through the lifecycle of many of our customers' applications.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">
Having flavors associated with load balancers and not VIPs also allows for operators to provide a lot more differing product offerings to the user in a way that is simple for the user to understand. For example:<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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"Flavor A" is the cheap load balancer option, deployed on a "shared" platform used by many tenants that has fewer guarantees around performance and costs X.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">
"Flavor B" is guaranteed to be deployed on "vendor Q's Super Special Product (tm)" but to keep down costs, may be shared with other tenants, though not among a single tenant's "load balancers" unless the tenant uses the same load balancer id when deploying
their VIPs (ie. user has control of affinity among their own VIPs, but no control over whether affinity happens with other tenants). It may experience variable performance as a result, but has higher guarantees than the above and costs a little more.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">
"Flavor C" is guaranteed to be deployed on "vendor P's Even Better Super Special Product (tm)" and is also guaranteed not to be shared among tenants. This is essentially the "dedicated load balancer" option that gets you the best guaranteed performance, but
costs a lot more than the above.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">
...and so on.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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A logical load balancer object is a great<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarcation_point" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">demarcation point </a> between operator concerns and user concerns.
It seems likely that there will be an operator API created, and this will need to interface with the user API at some well-defined interface. (If you like, I can provide a couple specific operator concerns which are much more easily accomplished without disrupting
the user experience using the demarc at the 'load balancer' instead of at the 'VIP'.)<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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So what are the main arguments against having this container object? In answering this question, please keep in mind:<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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If you say "implementation details," please just go ahead and be more specific because that's what I'm going to ask you to do anyway. If "implementation details" is the concern, please follow this with a hypothetical or concrete example as to what kinds of
implementations this object would invalidate simply by existing in the model, or what restrictions this object introduces.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">
If you say "I don't see a need" then you're really just asking people to come up with a use case that is more easily solved using the logical load balancer object rather than the VIP without the load balancer. I hope my reasons above address this, but I'm happy
to be more specific if you'd like: Please point out how my examples above are not convincing reasons for having this object, and I will be more specific.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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Thanks,<o:p></o:p></div>
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Stephen<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></p>
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On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 1:36 AM, Eugene Nikanorov <<a href="mailto:enikanorov@mirantis.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">enikanorov@mirantis.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div>
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Hi Brandon<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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<span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); ">Let me know if I am misunderstanding this,and please explain it</span><o:p></o:p></div>
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further.<br>
A single neutron port can have many fixed ips on many subnets. Since<br>
this is the case you're saying that there is no need for the API to<br>
define multiple VIPs since a single neutron port can represent all the<br>
IPs that all the VIPs require?<o:p></o:p></div>
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Right, if you want to to have both ipv4 and ipv6 addresses on the VIP then it's possible with single neutron port.<o:p></o:p></div>
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So multiple VIPs for this case are not needed.<o:p></o:p></div>
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<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136); "> </span></div>
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<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136); ">Eugene.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br>
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<a href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Stephen Balukoff<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Blue Box Group, LLC<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
(800)613-4305 x807<o:p></o:p></div>
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