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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hello Joe,<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">continuous refactoring and syncing across
        22+ repositories sounds like a nightmare, one that I would like
        to avoid.</blockquote>
      You are right this is not easy.<br>
      <br>
      However I have several reasons to do that:<br>
      The hardest part is to bring basic stuff in sync across all
      projects (That's what we are doing now). Later we'll work directly
      with oslo lib and just sync changes from it.<br>
      <br>
      We could introduce a standalone library to avoid the need to sync
      oslo code across all projects but it brings additional problems:<br>
      <br>
      1) We would have to maintain rationale versioning and backwards
      compatibility of this library. If we start library from scratch
      we'll have to add/change lots of stuff before we'll reach some
      stability period.<br>
      <br>
      2)Another option would be to follow waterfall process and create a
      solid library interface before including it to all client
      projects. However such approach this period can take unknown
      amount of time and can be easily failed during integration stage
      cause requirements change or some other reason.<br>
      <br>
      Please let me know what you think.<br>
      <br>
      Best Regards,<br>
      Alexei<br>
      <br>
      On 01/16/2014 08:16 PM, Joe Gordon wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAHXdxOf-+kUbb+yG7YLpjSc95_hvs+Kg0dwqxN=9869FpVyjuQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr"><br>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
          <br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:07 PM,
            Alexei Kornienko <span dir="ltr"><<a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:alexei.kornienko@gmail.com" target="_blank">alexei.kornienko@gmail.com</a>></span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                <div>
                  <div class="h5">
                    <div>On 01/16/2014 06:15 PM, Jesse Noller wrote:<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type="cite"> <br>
                      <div>
                        <div>On Jan 16, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Alexei
                          Kornienko <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:alexei.kornienko@gmail.com"
                            target="_blank">alexei.kornienko@gmail.com</a>>

                          wrote:</div>
                        <br>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                            <div>On 01/16/2014 05:25 PM, Jesse Noller
                              wrote:<br>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote type="cite"> <br>
                              <div>
                                <div>On Jan 16, 2014, at 9:07 AM, Joe
                                  Gordon <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:joe.gordon0@gmail.com"
                                    target="_blank">joe.gordon0@gmail.com</a>>

                                  wrote:</div>
                                <br>
                                <blockquote type="cite">
                                  <div dir="ltr"><br>
                                    <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu,
                                        Jan 16, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Jesse
                                        Noller <span dir="ltr"> <<a
                                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="mailto:jesse.noller@rackspace.com"
                                            target="_blank">jesse.noller@rackspace.com</a>></span>
                                        wrote:<br>
                                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                          style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                          <div
                                            style="word-wrap:break-word"><br>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>On Jan 16, 2014,
                                                    at 5:53 AM, Chmouel
                                                    Boudjnah <<a
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:chmouel@enovance.com" target="_blank">chmouel@enovance.com</a>>

                                                    wrote:</div>
                                                  <br>
                                                  <blockquote
                                                    type="cite">
                                                    <div dir="ltr">
                                                      <div
                                                        class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                                        <div
                                                          class="gmail_quote">On
                                                          Thu, Jan 16,
                                                          2014 at 12:38
                                                          PM, Chris
                                                          Jones <span
                                                          dir="ltr">
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cmsj@tenshu.net" target="_blank">cmsj@tenshu.net</a>></span>
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote"
                                                          style="margin:0px
                                                          0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                                          Once a common
                                                          library is in
                                                          place, is
                                                          there any
                                                          intention to
                                                          (or resistance
                                                          against)
                                                          collapsing the
                                                          clients into a
                                                          single project
                                                          or even a
                                                          single command
                                                          (a la
                                                          busybox)?</blockquote>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <br>
                                                        <br>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div
                                                        class="gmail_extra">that's

                                                        what
                                                        openstackclient
                                                        is here for <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                          href="https://github.com/openstack/python-openstackclient"
target="_blank">
https://github.com/openstack/python-openstackclient</a><br>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </blockquote>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>After speaking with
                                                people working on OSC
                                                and looking at the code
                                                base in depth; I don’t
                                                think this addresses
                                                what Chris is implying:
                                                OSC wraps the individual
                                                CLIs built by each
                                                project today, instead
                                                of the inverse: a common
                                                backend that the
                                                individual CLIs can wrap
                                                - the latter is an
                                                important distinction as
                                                currently, building a
                                                single binary install of
                                                OSC for say, Windows is
                                                difficult given the
                                                dependency tree incurred
                                                by each of the wrapped
                                                CLIs, difference in
                                                dependencies, structure,
                                                etc.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>Also, wrapping a
                                                series of inconsistent
                                                back end Client classes
                                                / functions / methods
                                                means that the layer
                                                that presents a
                                                consistent user
                                                interface (OSC) to the
                                                user is made more
                                                complex juggling
                                                names/renames/commands/etc. </div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>In the inverted case
                                                of what we have today
                                                (single backend); as a
                                                developer of user
                                                interfaces (CLIs,
                                                Applications, Web apps
                                                (horizon)) you would be
                                                able to:</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>from
                                                  openstack.common.api
                                                  import Auth</div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>from
                                                openstack.common.api
                                                import Compute</div>
                                              <div>from
                                                openstack.common.util
                                                import cli_tools</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>my_cli =
                                                cli_tools.build(…)</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>def my_command(cli):</div>
                                              <div><span
                                                  style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>compute

                                                =
                                                Compute(Auth(cli.tentant…,
                                                connect=True))</div>
                                              <div><span
                                                  style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>compute.list_flavors()</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>This would mean that
                                                *even if the individual
                                                clients needed or wanted
                                                to keep their specific
                                                CLIs, they would be able
                                                to use a not “least
                                                common denominator” back
                                                end (each service can
                                                have a rich <a
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://common.api.compute.py/" target="_blank">common.api.compute.py</a>
                                                or api.compute/client.py
                                                and extend where needed.
                                                However tools like
                                                horizon /
                                                openstackclient can
                                                choose not to leverage
                                                the “power
                                                user/operator/admin”
                                                components and present a
                                                simplified user
                                                interface.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>I’m working on a wiki
                                                page + blueprint to
                                                brainstorm how we could
                                                accomplish this based
                                                off of what work is in
                                                flight today (see doug’s
                                                linked blueprint) and
                                                sussing out a layout /
                                                API strawman for
                                                discussion. </div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>Some of the additions
                                                that came out of this
                                                email threads and
                                                others:</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>1. Common backend
                                                should provide / offer
                                                caching utilities </div>
                                              <div>2. Auth retries need
                                                to be handled by the
                                                auth object, and each
                                                sub-project delegates to
                                                the auth object to
                                                manage that.</div>
                                              <div>3. Verified Mocks /
                                                Stubs / Fakes must be
                                                provided for proper unit
                                                testing </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </blockquote>
                                        <div><br>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>I am happy to see this work
                                          being done, there is
                                          definitely a lot of work to be
                                          done on the clients.</div>
                                        <div><br>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>This blueprint sounds like
                                          its still being fleshed out,
                                          so I am wondering what the
                                          value is of the current
                                          patches <a
                                            moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/common-client-library-2,n,z"
                                            target="_blank">https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/common-client-library-2,n,z</a></div>
                                        <div><br>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>Those patches mainly sync
                                          cliutils and apiutils from
                                          oslo into the assorted
                                          clients. But if this blueprint
                                          is about the python API and
                                          not the CLI (as that would be
                                          the openstack-pythonclient),
                                          why sync in apiutils?</div>
                                        <div><br>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>Also does this need to go
                                          through oslo-incubator or can
                                          this start out as a library?
                                          Making this a library earlier
                                          on will reduce the number of
                                          patches needed to get 20+
                                          repositories to use this.</div>
                                        <div><br>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Alexei and others have at least
                                started the first stage of a rollout -
                                the blueprint(s) needs additional work,
                                planning and discussion, but his work is
                                a good first step (reduce the
                                duplication of code) although I am
                                worried that the libraries and APIs /
                                namespaces will need to change if we
                                continue these discussions which
                                potentially means re-doing work.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>If we take a step back, a rollout
                                process might be:</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>1: Solidify the libraries / layout /
                                naming conventions (blueprint)</div>
                              <div>2: Solidify the APIs exposed to
                                consumers (blueprint)</div>
                              <div>3: Pick up on the
                                common-client-library-2 work which is
                                primarily a migration of common code
                                into oslo today, into the structure
                                defined by 1 & 2</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>So, I sort of agree: moving /
                                collapsing code now might be premature.
                                I do strongly agree it should stand on
                                its own as a library rather than an oslo
                                incubator however. We should start with
                                a single, clean namespace / library
                                rather than depending on oslo directly.</div>
                            </blockquote>
                            Knowing usual openstack workflow I'm afraid
                            that #1,#2 with a waterfall approach may
                            take years to be complete. <br>
                            And after they'll be approved it will become
                            clear that this architecture is already
                            outdated.<br>
                            We try to use iterative approach for clients
                            refactoring.<br>
                            We started our work from removing code
                            duplication because it already gives a
                            direct positive effect on client projects.<br>
                            If you can show us better way of moving
                            forward please help us by uploading patches
                            on this topic.<br>
                            <br>
                            Talk is cheap. Show me the code. (c) Linus<br>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>I don’t disagree and I’m pretty sure I and
                          others have already thanked you for starting
                          this but have expressed concerns about the API
                          / layout - and many of the patches on that
                          blueprint are still pending review due to
                          those concerns. I’m not suggesting we need to
                          spend the next six years designing it, I’m
                          arguing for some basic design. From the
                          current blueprint it is unclear where things
                          will live, where it will live and how does it
                          benefit everyone.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>So I’d like to work *with* you to expand
                          the blueprints to address some basic design /
                          namespacing / issues and not jump straight
                          into refactoring 22+ command line tools
                          without a clear idea of the the desired layout
                          and design.</div>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                </div>
                The problem with defining design is that I don't know a
                convenient way of doing it cause UML, etherpad,
                blueprint's description are not sufficient to do this
                clearly.<br>
                We try to use approach that I call "continuous
                refactoring" so as long as something can be improved we
                improve it.<br>
                Our basic goal is to move towards SOLID principles and
                as long every new commit brings us one step closer to
                them I consider that overall design is improving.<br>
                I've already posted here a draft idea of what we would
                like to see in the end:
                <div class="im"><br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>continuous refactoring and syncing across 22+
              repositories sounds like a nightmare, one that I would
              like to avoid.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>
               </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                <div class="im">
                  <pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre>1) Transport layer would handle all transport related stuff - HTTP, JSON
encoding, auth, caching, etc.
2) Model layer (Resource classes, BaseManager, etc.) will handle data
representation, validation
3) API layer will handle all project specific stuff - url mapping, etc.
(This will be imported to use client in other applications)
4) Cli level will handle all stuff related to cli mapping - argparse,
argcomplete, etc.</pre></blockquote>
</pre>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div> <br>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div class="im">
                            <div>jesse</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            <fieldset></fieldset>
                            <br>
                            <pre>_______________________________________________
OpenStack-dev mailing list
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</pre>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <br>
                      </div>
                      <div class="im">
                        _______________________________________________<br>
                        OpenStack-dev mailing list<br>
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org"
                          target="_blank">OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org</a><br>
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev"
                          target="_blank">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev</a><br>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                  <div class="im"> <br>
                    <br>
                    <fieldset></fieldset>
                    <br>
                    <pre>_______________________________________________
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              OpenStack-dev mailing list<br>
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                href="mailto:OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org">OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org</a><br>
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                target="_blank">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev</a><br>
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OpenStack-dev mailing list
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