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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Nikolay,<br>
      Please see comments inline.<br>
      Thanks<br>
      Patrick<br>
      On 8/12/13 5:28 PM, Nikolay Starodubtsev wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAAa8YgBxuXTZJ=uJ9TWEh-Y3ZBOuDr=nGwciH9O5=1BQz0Qq2A@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      <div dir="ltr"><span
          id="docs-internal-guid-7979c2fb-7323-8e3c-7844-b1879f212977">
          <p dir="ltr"
            style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Hi,
              again!</span></p>
          <br>
          <span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span>
          <p dir="ltr"
            style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Partick,
              I’ll try to explain why do we belive in some base actions
              like instance starting/deleting in Climate. We are
              thinking about the following workflow (that will be quite
              comfortable and user friendly, and now we have more than
              one customer who really want it):</span></p>
          <br>
          <span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span>
          <p dir="ltr"
            style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">1)
              User goes to the OpenStack dashboard and asks Heat to
              reserve several stacks.</span></p>
          <br>
          <span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span>
          <p dir="ltr"
            style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">2)
              Heat goes to the Climate and creates all needed leases.
              Also Heat reserves all resources for these stacks.</span></p>
          <br>
          <span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span>
          <p dir="ltr"
            style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">3)
              When time comes, user goes to the OpenStack cloud and here
              we think he wants to see already working stacks (ideal
              version) or (at least) already started. If no, user will
              have to go to the Dashboard and wake up all the stacks he
              or she reserved. This means several actions, that may be
              done for the user automatically, because it will be needed
              to do them no matter what is the aim for these stacks - if
              user reserves them, he / she needs them.</span></p>
          <br>
          <span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span>
          <p dir="ltr"
            style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">We
              understand, that there are situations when these actions
              may be done by some other system (like some hypothetical
              Jenkins). But if we speak about users, this will be
              useful. We also understand that this default way of
              behavior should be implemented in some kind of long term
              life cycle management system (which is not Heat), but we
              have no one in the OpenStack now. Because the best may to
              implement it is to use Convection, that is only proposal
              now... </span></p>
          <br>
          <span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span>
          <p dir="ltr"
            style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">That’s
              why we think that for the behavior like “user just
              reserves resources and then does anything he / she wants
              to” physical leases are better variant, when user may
              reserve several nodes and use it in different ways. For
              the virtual reservations it will be better to start /
              delete them as a default way (for something unusual Heat
              may be used and modified).</span></p>
        </span></div>
    </blockquote>
    Okay. So let's bootstrap it this way then. There will be two
    different ways the reservation service will deal with reservations
    depending on whether its physical or virtual. All things being
    equal, future will tell how things settle. We will focus on the
    physical host reservation side of things. It think having this
    contradictory debate helped to understand each others use cases and
    requirements that the initial design has to cope with. Francois who
    already submitted a bunch of code for review will not return from
    vacation until the end of August. So things on our side are a little
    on the standby until he returns but it might help if you could take
    a look at it. I suggest you start with your vision and we will
    iterate from there. Is that okay with you?<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAAa8YgBxuXTZJ=uJ9TWEh-Y3ZBOuDr=nGwciH9O5=1BQz0Qq2A@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr"><span
          id="docs-internal-guid-7979c2fb-7323-8e3c-7844-b1879f212977">
          <br>
          <span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span>
          <p dir="ltr"
            style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Do
              you think that this workflow is useful too and if so can
              you propose another implementation  variant for it?</span></p>
          <br>
          <span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span>
          <p dir="ltr"
            style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Thank
              you. </span></p>
          <div><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br>
            </span></div>
        </span></div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Patrick Petit <span
            dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:patrick.petit@bull.net" target="_blank">patrick.petit@bull.net</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
              <div class="im">
                <div>On 8/9/13 3:05 PM, Nikolay Starodubtsev wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">Hello, Patrick! <br>
                     <br>
                    We have several reasons to think that for the
                    virtual resources this possibility is interesting.
                    If we speak about physical resources, user may use
                    them in the different ways, that's why it is
                    impossible to include base actions with them to the
                    reservation service. But speaking about virtual
                    reservations, let's imagine user wants to reserve
                    virtual machine. He knows everything about it - its
                    parameters, flavor and time to be leased for.
                    Really, in this case user wants to have already
                    working (or at least starting to work) reserved
                    virtual machine and it would be great to include
                    this opportunity to the reservation service. <br>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">We are thinking about base actions for
                    the virtual reservations that will be supported by
                    Climate, like boot/delete for instance,
                    create/delete for volume and create/delete for the
                    stacks. The same will be with volumes, IPs, etc. As
                    for more complicated behaviour, it may be
                    implemented in Heat. This will make reservations
                    simpler to use for the end users. <br>
                     <br>
                    Don't you think so? <br>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              Well yes and and no. It really depends upon what you put
              behind those lease actions. The view I am trying to
              sustain is separation of duties to keep the service
              simple, ubiquitous and non prescriptive of a certain kind
              of usage pattern. In other words, keep Climate for
              reservation of capacity (physical or virtual), Heat for
              orchestration, and so forth. ... Consider for example the
              case of reservation as a non technical act but rather as a
              business enabler for wholesales activities. Don't need,
              and probably don't want to start or stop any resource
              there. I do not deny that there are cases where it is
              desirable but then how reservations are used and composed
              together at the end of the day mainly depends on exogenous
              factors which couldn't be anticipated because they are
              driven by the business.<br>
              <br>
              And so, rather than coupling reservations with wired
              resource instantiation actions, I would rather couple them
              with notifications that everybody can subscribe to (as
              opposed to the Resource Manager only) which would let
              users decide what to do with the life-cycle events. The
              what to do may very well be what you advocate i.e. start a
              full stack of reserved and interwoven resources, or at the
              other end of the spectrum, do nothing at all. This
              approach IMO would keep things more open.  <br>
              <div class="im">
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr"> <br>
                    P.S. Also we remember about the problem you
                    mentioned some letters ago - how to guarantee that
                    user will have already working and prepared host /
                    VM / stack / etc. by the time lease actually starts,
                    no just "lease begins and preparing process begins
                    too". We are working on it now.<br>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              Yes. I think I was explicitly referring to hosts
              instantiation also because there is no support of that in
              Nova API. Climate should support some kind of "reservation
              kick-in heads-up" notification whereby the provider and/or
              some automated provisioning tools could do the heavy
              lifting work of bringing physical hosts online before a
              hosts reservation lease starts. I think it doesn't have to
              be rocket-science either. It's probably sufficient to make
              Climate fire up a notification that say "Lease starting in
              x seconds", x being  an offset value against T0 that could
              be defined by the operator based on heuristics. A
              dedicated (e.g. IPMI) module of the Resource Manager for
              hosts reservation would subscribe as listener to those
              events.  <br>
              <div class="im">
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr"> </div>
                  <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                    <br>
                    <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 8:18
                      PM, Patrick Petit <span dir="ltr"><<a
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:patrick.petit@bull.net"
                          target="_blank">patrick.petit@bull.net</a>></span>
                      wrote:<br>
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0
                        0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                        solid;padding-left:1ex">
                        <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                          <div>Hi Nikolay,<br>
                            <br>
                            Relying on Heat for orchestration is
                            obviously the right thing to do. But there
                            is still something in your design approach
                            that I am having difficulties to comprehend
                            since the beginning. Why do you keep
                            thinking that orchestration and reservation
                            should be treated together? That's adding
                            unnecessary complexity IMHO. I just don't
                            get it. Wouldn't it be much simpler and
                            sufficient to say that there are pools of
                            reserved resources you create through the
                            reservation service. Those pools could be of
                            different types i.e. host, instance, volume,
                            network,.., whatever if that's really
                            needed. Those pools are identified by a
                            unique id that you pass along when the
                            resource is created. That's it. You know,
                            the AWS reservation service doesn't even
                            care about referencing a reservation when an
                            instance is created. The association between
                            the two just happens behind the scene. That
                            would work in all scenarios, manual,
                            automatic, whatever... So, why do you care
                            so much about this in a first place?<br>
                            Thanks, <br>
                            Patrick
                            <div>
                              <div><br>
                                On 8/7/13 3:35 PM, Nikolay Starodubtsev
                                wrote:<br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <blockquote type="cite">
                                <div dir="ltr">
                                  <div>Patrick, responding to your
                                    comments:</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>1) Dina mentioned "start
                                    automatically" and "start manually"
                                    only as examples of how these
                                    politics may look like. It doesn't
                                    seem to be a correct approach to put
                                    orchestration functionality (that
                                    belongs to Heat) in Climate. That's
                                    why now we can implement the basics
                                    like starting Heat stack, and for
                                    more complex actions we may later
                                    utilize something like Convection
                                    (Task-as-a-Service) project.</div>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                              <blockquote type="cite">
                                <div dir="ltr">
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>2) If we agree that Heat is the
                                    main consumer of
                                    Reservation-as-a-Service, we can
                                    agree that lease may be created
                                    according to one of the following
                                    scenarions (but not multiple):</div>
                                  <div>- a Heat stack (with requirements
                                    to stack's contents) as a resource
                                    to be reserved</div>
                                  <div>- some amount of physical hosts
                                    (random ones or filtered based on
                                    certain characteristics). </div>
                                  <div>- some amount of individual VMs
                                    OR Volumes OR IPs </div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>3) Heat might be the main
                                    consumer of virtual reservations. If
                                    not, Heat will require development
                                    efforts in order to support:</div>
                                  <div>- reservation of a stack </div>
                                  <div>- waking up a reserved stack</div>
                                  <div>- performing all the usual
                                    orchestration work</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>We will support reservation of
                                    individual instance/volume/ IP etc,
                                    but the use case with "giving user
                                    already working group of connected
                                    VMs, volumes, networks" seems to be
                                    the most interesting one. </div>
                                  <div>As for Heat autoscaling,
                                    reservation of the maximum instances
                                    set in the Heat template (not the
                                    minimum value) has to be implemented
                                    in Heat. Some open questions remain
                                    though - like updating of Heat stack
                                    when user changes the template to
                                    support higher max number of running
                                    instances</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>4) As a user, I would of course
                                    want to have it already working,
                                    running any configured
                                    hosts/stacks/etc by the time lease
                                    starts. But in reality we can't
                                    predict how much time the
                                    preparation process should take for
                                    every single use case. So if you
                                    have an idea how this should be
                                    implemented, it would be great you
                                    share your opinion.</div>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type="cite">
                            <div dir="ltr"> </div>
                            <br>
                            <fieldset></fieldset>
                            <br>
                            <pre>_______________________________________________
OpenStack-dev mailing list
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</pre>
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